Shift: London's Rapid Transit Initiative

[Doady]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

It's true that articulated buses don't handle snow as well as conventional buses, but OC Transpo operates more of them than any other transit provider in the country (probably by a very wide margin), Ottawa's about as snowy as London, and these problems don't happen very often. That picture was from over a decade ago and, since then, Ottawa has taken precautions like better tires, and keeping the articulated buses off the roads during heavy snowfalls. As you say, Doady, that's what Mississauga does, and what Vancouver does, too (that's not as snowy a city, but they operate a lot of articulated buses).

Is there any information about how much service disruption OC Transpo's buses experience as a result of snowy weather? I'm not saying that winter weather is not a consideration, but I don't think it's a significant one.

OC Transpo buses struggle during Wednesday storm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/oc-transpo-buses-struggle-during-wednesday-storm-1.1310832

1 in 3 OCTranspo buses currently stuck in snow
https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/4668tm/1_in_3_octranspo_buses_currently_stuck_in_snow/

Regardless, Ottawa is moving on from buses, especially articulated buses. They are converting their BRT to LRT. I don't see how that is an example of why London should build BRT. If London wants to follow Ottawa's lead, they should build LRT.

There's a lot of really dumb, ridiculous stuff pro-LRT/anti-bus people say about Ottawa's BRT. Once I even read an article on a pro-LRT/anti-bus website that suggested that the BRT caused Ottawa's transit ridership to decline. But the disadvantage of artics in snow is real. The congestion and disruption along Albert and Slater is real.

Ottawa's transit can be the model for London, but why emulate their mistake instead of their fix for that mistake?

[database]

The London Free Press went into full-on attack mode this morning. Three articles all with anti-BRT sentiments. The bias is unreal. I think my favourite part is the resident who proclaims the existing bus service needs to be improved instead - an opinion formed on his observations from morning walks to Covent Garden Market. It would be brilliant journalism if the Freeps thought to interview an actual transit rider?

FYI: GreenlightRT.ca is crowd-funding "Great Cities Have Great Transit" lawn signs for 10 bucks a pop.

Links to the three articles:

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/10/take-your-time-and-get-it-right-chamber-tells-city-officials

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/10/london...aterloo-region-found-in-its-transit-work

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/10/it-alm...shift-happens-groups-how-did-we-get-here

[kaiserLDN]

I don't even read the full Rapid transit article's anymore with the Lfpress. Every article is almost the same and all blasting negative stuff against rapid transit or anything they can find. Clearly the down shift people will have more signs. They are nuts and have funding. Majority of people for it and want London to grow are always working worrying about other stuff hoping the city is doing a good job and will judge there progress at the ballot boxes next time.

[jammer139]

I support transit improvements.

What I cannot support is the EPIC failure on the order of a Greek Tragedy a bus only tunnel on Richmond under the CP tracks would be. That piece cannot be allowed to happen, period STOP.

Can you imagine the headlines when the first accident happens were a car or truck or pedestrian or bike rider is injured by one of the CP trains on their level crossing. Or worst still some kid decides to ride down the bus tunnel lanes to avoid a wait for a freight train.

This needs a complete grade separation between CP and everything else. PERIOD STOP. No other half-assed stupid design is acceptable.

[HillStreetBlues]

"London dig could reveal surprises like ‘corduroy road’ Waterloo Region found in its transit work"

That headline made me burst out laughing! Know what happened when the corduroy road was discovered? A lot of locals got excited about local history, construction was delayed a bit while it was documented and dismantled, and then people lined up around the block to get sections of it. The article acknowledges that the overall construction timeline wasn't delayed.

Ben Lansink's comments in the article that you referenced, database, are typical of people who don't have basic knowledge about transit.

[Underground100]

Originally Posted by jammer139

I support transit improvements.

What I cannot support is the EPIC failure on the order of a Greek Tragedy a bus only tunnel on Richmond under the CP tracks would be. That piece cannot be allowed to happen, period STOP.

Can you imagine the headlines when the first accident happens were a car or truck or pedestrian or bike rider is injured by one of the CP trains on their level crossing. Or worst still some kid decides to ride down the bus tunnel lanes to avoid a wait for a freight train.

This needs a complete grade separation between CP and everything else. PERIOD STOP. No other half-assed stupid design is acceptable.

The Shift team considered an underpass, but many basements on Richmond Row are right up against the road right of way and it would be impossible to do a full-fledged 4-lane underpass, much like Richmond and Wellington CN. All other options they also considered, like burying the tracks, raising them, and re-routing them are were cost-prohibitive.

[jammer139]

Then the only option is expropriation of properties and demolition to widen the area near the CP tracks to built a full underpass. Half-assed measures like a bus only tunnel is not acceptable as an option. The costs have now double or tripled just for this small portion of the plan.

[Dupcheck]

Originally Posted by jammer139

I support transit improvements.

What I cannot support is the EPIC failure on the order of a Greek Tragedy a bus only tunnel on Richmond under the CP tracks would be. That piece cannot be allowed to happen, period STOP.

Can you imagine the headlines when the first accident happens were a car or truck or pedestrian or bike rider is injured by one of the CP trains on their level crossing. Or worst still some kid decides to ride down the bus tunnel lanes to avoid a wait for a freight train.

This needs a complete grade separation between CP and everything else. PERIOD STOP. No other half-assed stupid design is acceptable.

I agree. I never liked the idea of having a tunnel under Richmond/Oxford. That would deface that whole area. I am still leaning towards Wharncliffe road route as i think it would be much cleaner to build. We could connect it back to the downtown somehow, it should not be as much of a headache as the tunnel would bring to the city and the businesses around there. Why break something that is working well such as Richmond/Oxford. Fix the already broken Oxford/Wharncliffe one. Get two birds with one stone.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by jammer139

Then the only option is expropriation of properties and demolition to widen the area near the CP tracks to built a full underpass. Half-assed measures like a bus only tunnel is not acceptable as an option. The costs have now double or tripled just for this small portion of the plan.

You'd basically also kill any rapid transit support that was remaining along Richmond Row.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Dupcheck

I agree. I never liked the idea of having a tunnel under Richmond/Oxford. That would deface that whole area. I am still leaning towards Wharncliffe road route as i think it would be much cleaner to build. We could connect it back to the downtown somehow, it should not be as much of a headache as the tunnel would bring to the city and the businesses around there. Why break something that is working well such as Richmond/Oxford. Fix the already broken Oxford/Wharncliffe one. Get two birds with one stone.

The biggest problem with the Wharncliffe route is projected ridership. There's also a lot of restrictions about what can be built along Wharncliffe between Riverside and Oxford due to the flood plain; intensification that comes with rapid transit would simply be impossible there due to environmental regulations.

To put it another way, putting rapid transit along Wharncliffe instead of Richmond would be like putting Toronto's subway in the Rosedale Valley instead of under Yonge Street.

[manny_santos]

Was anyone here at last night's BRT meeting for Wards 6 & 13?

From what I saw in the LFP and on Twitter, it sounds like it was a very anti-rapid transit crowd, and a demographic that will likely not even be driving by the time BRT is fully built.

[haljackey]

Large discussion on Reddit about the 'Down-Shift' movement

https://www.reddit.com/r/londonontario/comments/652cpy/thoughts_on_the_down_shift_london_movement/

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Large discussion on Reddit about the 'Down-Shift' movement

https://www.reddit.com/r/londonontario/comments/652cpy/thoughts_on_the_down_shift_london_movement/

Far to many passionate comments with zero suggestions for ways it can be improved (granted there are a few decent suggestions).

I think that is part of the problem and I am sure this is the same in any city proposing something of this size. You get people who are completely opposed or completely for it and not much actual dialog of the real pro and cons. More importantly giving ideas as to how it can be more accommodating.

London needs rapid transit that much we know, my opinion is that BRT is a waste of time granted it better than nothing

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

Far to many passionate comments with zero suggestions for ways it can be improved (granted there are a few decent suggestions).

I think that is part of the problem and I am sure this is the same in any city proposing something of this size. You get people who are completely opposed or completely for it and not much actual dialog of the real pro and cons. More importantly giving ideas as to how it can be more accommodating.

London needs rapid transit that much we know, my opinion is that BRT is a waste of time granted it better than nothing

The opposition to LRT is quite intense in Hamilton, I've heard.

[Dupcheck]

LRT now or never in our lifetimes. LRT, LRT, LRT....

[Underground100]

The CEO of Libro Credit Union backs bus rapid transit: http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/17/libro-...sit-concept-to-help-shape-londons-future

[kaiserLDN]

Originally Posted by Underground100

The CEO of Libro Credit Union backs bus rapid transit: http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/17/libro-...sit-concept-to-help-shape-londons-future

Hopefully more corporate's come out like this and speak positively about the project.

[Dupcheck]

I bet you if they build the LRT instead, the tunnel would have not been such an issue. Is there still time to re-consider LRT vs BRT?

If no go on all options because of the tunnel. Then really consider relocating the tracks that F all of this up to start with. They are the root of all the problems here!!!

[haljackey]

I've given up about being picky at this point. Just do something... Or else nothing will happen once again.

[Stevo26]

Originally Posted by database

The London Free Press went into full-on attack mode this morning. Three articles all with anti-BRT sentiments. The bias is unreal. I think my favourite part is the resident who proclaims the existing bus service needs to be improved instead - an opinion formed on his observations from morning walks to Covent Garden Market. It would be brilliant journalism if the Freeps thought to interview an actual transit rider?

FYI: GreenlightRT.ca is crowd-funding "Great Cities Have Great Transit" lawn signs for 10 bucks a pop.

Links to the three articles:

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/10/take-your-time-and-get-it-right-chamber-tells-city-officials

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/10/london...aterloo-region-found-in-its-transit-work

http://www.lfpress.com/2017/04/10/it-alm...shift-happens-groups-how-did-we-get-here

Well, what did you expect? The Free Press is a conservative newspaper, and their editorial bent necessarily disagrees with anything that could mean progress and involves the expenditure of a lot of tax dollars. In short, spending any amount of tax money for anything = bad.

Most newspapers are pretty much useful as bird-cage liner, so I tend to take what the LFP says with a grain of salt. Taking an opposing stance is just a means of laying the ground work for future news stories.