Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Sheba]

Buzzer Blog - Bus Route Buzz: Surrey/White Rock/Delta/Langley

Bus frequency updates. It's still nowhere near the level of CoV but any increase is welcome. Most of it is increasing rush hour frequencies to 15 - 20 minutes.

Notable that in White Rock 4 of the Community Shuttle routes (which is most of their bus service) are being increased from 60 to 30 min during the day. Is it any wonder that their 2015 ranking was low.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Buzzer Blog - Bus Route Buzz: Surrey/White Rock/Delta/Langley

Bus frequency updates. It's still nowhere near the level of CoV but any increase is welcome. Most of it is increasing rush hour frequencies to 15 - 20 minutes.

Notable that in White Rock 4 of the Community Shuttle routes (which is most of their bus service) are being increased from 60 to 30 min during the day. Is it any wonder that their 2015 ranking was low.

Do you know if any of the frequency improvements increase the coverage of the Frequent Transit Network?

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I have come to realize that there is a limit to how far we can extend the Skytrain line without some major alterations. WB trains are already departing packed from KGB in the morning. This is leading to instances where commuters at Gateway and Scott Rd are having to wait 2-3 trains to get onboard. Imagine the increased ridership coming out of Fleetwood....

Actually I think this has something to do with the schedule situation of the actual trains right now moreso than any actual issues of capacity...

With the changes done for Evergreen, peak hour service is actually running at somewhat less than the previous 108 second frequencies at peak hours right now on the Expo main-line. I'm not sure what it is exactly, but the trade-off is that Mark I trains are now consistently 6-car. There was a proposal to also cut the off-peak frequencies but TransLink changed their mind and did not proceed. The result is some trains will be serving more passengers than usual.

I have noticed these days is that there is more staggering of the trains during peak hours - so two or three trains are coming within close proximity of each other, with the first one coming out of King George extremely packed with the KG & SC commuters. This is a clear consequence of the schedule change, but the second train usually always has some space to get on board. I've been commuting during peak hours recently out of KG Station in the morning starting around 8AM and this is what I've been noticing.

With fleet expansion I think we can bring back peak service frequencies to pre-Evergreen levels, or start a set-up whereby the peak hour ratio of King George to Production Way trains is changed to 3-1 (so KG-KG-KG-PWU every 90 seconds, PWU every 6 minutes).

With the growth of Surrey as a City Centre I also see good plausibility of having through trains from Langley to Waterfront alternate with 2-car trains running from Langley to Surrey Central or Scott Rd only, to provide additional service to Surrey and along the corridor. This is a pretty common set-up on lines that span multiple cities in Japan, whereby massive 10 or 15-car through trains to the big city (i.e. Tokyo Station) go to/from an outer city terminus (i.e. Numazu in Shizuoka) at a set interval, but the majority of service is with smaller trains servicing the local area at a higher frequency. Those trains do offer service to a key station where the big trains to the city are running more frequently (i.e. from Numazu you take the small JR-Tokai operated 2-car train to Atami, then transfer cross-platform to the JR-east 15-car train to Tokyo).

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I have come to realize that there is a limit to how far we can extend the Skytrain line without some major alterations. WB trains are already departing packed from KGB in the morning. This is leading to instances where commuters at Gateway and Scott Rd are having to wait 2-3 trains to get onboard. Imagine the increased ridership coming out of Fleetwood....

This is because more and more people are riding eastbound to KG to secure a seat and then head westbound. The same happens with the downtown stations where people ride to waterfront just to get a seat.

They obviously need more cars and increased frequency.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

This is because more and more people are riding eastbound to KG to secure a seat and then head westbound. The same happens with the downtown stations where people ride to waterfront just to get a seat.

They obviously need more cars and increased frequency.

Will certainly be nice once we get more Mark 3's and potentially a 5 car, someday...

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

This is because more and more people are riding eastbound to KG to secure a seat and then head westbound. The same happens with the downtown stations where people ride to waterfront just to get a seat.

They obviously need more cars and increased frequency.

It's a recent issue (perhaps 5 yrs). I was at KG and a train came in with standing room only.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Actually I think this has something to do with the schedule situation of the actual trains right now moreso than any actual issues of capacity...

With the changes done for Evergreen, peak hour service is actually running at somewhat less than the previous 108 second frequencies at peak hours right now on the Expo main-line. I'm not sure what it is exactly, but the trade-off is that Mark I trains are now consistently 6-car. There was a proposal to also cut the off-peak frequencies but TransLink changed their mind and did not proceed. The result is some trains will be serving more passengers than usual.

I have noticed these days is that there is more staggering of the trains during peak hours - so two or three trains are coming within close proximity of each other, with the first one coming out of King George extremely packed with the KG & SC commuters. This is a clear consequence of the schedule change, but the second train usually always has some space to get on board. I've been commuting during peak hours recently out of KG Station in the morning starting around 8AM and this is what I've been noticing.

With fleet expansion I think we can bring back peak service frequencies to pre-Evergreen levels, or start a set-up whereby the peak hour ratio of King George to Production Way trains is changed to 3-1 (so KG-KG-KG-PWU every 90 seconds, PWU every 6 minutes).

With the growth of Surrey as a City Centre I also see good plausibility of having through trains from Langley to Waterfront alternate with 2-car trains running from Langley to Surrey Central or Scott Rd only, to provide additional service to Surrey and along the corridor. This is a pretty common set-up on lines that span multiple cities in Japan, whereby massive 10 or 15-car through trains to the big city (i.e. Tokyo Station) go to/from an outer city terminus (i.e. Numazu in Shizuoka) at a set interval, but the majority of service is with smaller trains servicing the local area at a higher frequency. Those trains do offer service to a key station where the big trains to the city are running more frequently (i.e. from Numazu you take the small JR-Tokai operated 2-car train to Atami, then transfer cross-platform to the JR-east 15-car train to Tokyo).

The Expo Line is not futureproof. Development near station hubs will ultimately lead to overcrowding- and this is not decades away but perhaps 7-10 years away from being run at "crushload capacity" even with the 90 second frequencies. We've seen a difference 10 years has made SoF.....

There can be steps to retrofit portions of the line including spending an insane amount of money to add a third platform at Columbia and run a shuttle to Lougheed. This would allow for the Expo Line to run at max capacity.

I am not advocating for LRT in Surrrey but do think any extension needs to be carefully planned out.

Essentially, I will echo the sentiment that rapid bus service is needed between Surrey and Coquitlam, Surrey and Richmond and Surrey and Annacis Island.

Secondly, rapid rail service between Langley to Vancouver/Burnaby via Scott Rd needs to explored. Additionally, rapid rail should have been explored for Hwy 99 but alas, all levels of government seem totally unwilling to spend any money on rapid rail transit.

It is alarming seeing all the development SoF with no coherent transportation plan in place. The LRT touches just a tiny portion of the region, perhaps adding partial improvements with regards to capacity but it does nothing long-term and for most of Surrey.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

It's a recent issue (perhaps 5 yrs). I was at KG and a train came in with standing room only.

The Expo Line is not futureproof. Development near station hubs will ultimately lead to overcrowding- and this is not decades away but perhaps 7-10 years away from being run at "crushload capacity" even with the 90 second frequencies. We've seen a difference 10 years has made SoF.....

There can be steps to retrofit portions of the line including spending an insane amount of money to add a third platform at Columbia and run a shuttle to Lougheed. This would allow for the Expo Line to run at max capacity.

I am not advocating for LRT in Surrrey but do think any extension needs to be carefully planned out.

Essentially, I will echo the sentiment that rapid bus service is needed between Surrey and Coquitlam, Surrey and Richmond and Surrey and Annacis Island.

Secondly, rapid rail service between Langley to Vancouver/Burnaby via Scott Rd needs to explored. Additionally, rapid rail should have been explored for Hwy 99 but alas, all levels of government seem totally unwilling to spend any money on rapid rail transit.

It is alarming seeing all the development SoF with no coherent transportation plan in place. The LRT touches just a tiny portion of the region, perhaps adding partial improvements with regards to capacity but it does nothing long-term and for most of Surrey.

If they made an extension from Lougheed north to Hastings, and then along Hastings to Waterfront, they could run from Columbia, and that would ease the congestion on that line.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

There can be steps to retrofit portions of the line including spending an insane amount of money to add a third platform at Columbia and run a shuttle to Lougheed. This would allow for the Expo Line to run at max capacity.

I strongly doubt this will ever happen. The interleaving of trains to Surrey and Lougheed is actually necessary for balanced operation of the Expo line. If all trains came directly from King George then by the time they hit New Westminster and Burnaby they'd be completely full, denying inbound service to people living there and in Vancouver. Originating every other train from Lougheed provides a supply of trains that have the capacity to handle those passengers.

[officedweller]

... like the YVR trains on the Canada Line.

Anyways, crowding issues can be dealt with by short-turning trains to provide empty trains at over-crowded platforms
- I think there are plans to short-turn trains at Metrotown.

[flipper316]

Translink should seriously start considering giving KG Station a major deep clean/repaint or just renovate already. With all these new towers there it really looks like a dump. And before you say "Well LRT hasn't been decided/built. It'll be a waste of money." Surrey Central is finally getting a renovation soon.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I strongly doubt this will ever happen. The interleaving of trains to Surrey and Lougheed is actually necessary for balanced operation of the Expo line. If all trains came directly from King George then by the time they hit New Westminster and Burnaby they'd be completely full, denying inbound service to people living there and in Vancouver. Originating every other train from Lougheed provides a supply of trains that have the capacity to handle those passengers.

This is a really good point. It has the effect of short turning but, with more predictability for passengers. Nonetheless, it's definetly the case that we need to seriously consider how to drastically improve capacity on the Expo Line which is certainly possible, or bring thinking about another link.

[ryanmaccdn]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I strongly doubt this will ever happen. The interleaving of trains to Surrey and Lougheed is actually necessary for balanced operation of the Expo line. If all trains came directly from King George then by the time they hit New Westminster and Burnaby they'd be completely full, denying inbound service to people living there and in Vancouver. Originating every other train from Lougheed provides a supply of trains that have the capacity to handle those passengers.

That logic makes zero sense.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ryanmaccdn

That logic makes zero sense.

It's exactly the same concept as short-turning trains, which is a standard strategy on rapid transit lines worldwide to balance the service between outlying and more central areas. Heck, the same concept is used on Vancouver's trolley and bus lines (Victoria trolleys that short turn at 54th, 41st buses that short turn at Dunbar, UBC buses that short turn at Alma, etc. etc.).

Whether you short turn some trains or split the service at Columbia, the result is the same - Surrey is unlikely to ever see the same frequency of service as the more central portions of the line. Therefore it really doesn't make any sense on spending money to add a platform at Columbia to provide an isolated shuttle service to Lougheed.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

It's exactly the same concept as short-turning trains, which is a standard strategy on rapid transit lines worldwide to balance the service between outlying and more central areas. Heck, the same concept is used on Vancouver's trolley and bus lines (Victoria trolleys that short turn at 54th, 41st buses that short turn at Dunbar, UBC buses that short turn at Alma, etc. etc.).

Whether you short turn some trains or split the service at Columbia, the result is the same - Surrey is unlikely to ever see the same frequency of service as the more central portions of the line. Therefore it really doesn't make any sense on spending money to add a platform at Columbia to provide an isolated shuttle service to Lougheed.

I think the reason we would be adding a third platform and making it a shuttle service is just that. So Surrey COULD see an increased frequency.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I think the reason we would be adding a third platform and making it a shuttle service is just that. So Surrey COULD see an increased frequency.

See above. That means that Surrey riders would pack all the trains first and screw over Burnaby/New West riders.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

See above. That means that Surrey riders would pack all the trains first and screw over Burnaby/New West riders.

I'm not saying its the best idea I'm just saying that this was what he was referring to.

[twoNeurons]

Many of you are forgetting one aspect of an LRT line that buses have a really hard time matching: Permanence.

104th and King George are major corridors. While some complain that narrowing them to put in an LRT is a mistake because it will snarl traffic and be slow, you're missing the point. And LRT line along this route is permanent. It's consistent. It's reliable. It shows up on a transit map.

It doesn't MATTER if it won't be faster than a bus.

It doesn't MATTER if it will be expensive to build.

It doesn't MATTER is improving bus service all over would have been a better use of funds.

What MATTERS is that it is a TRANSIT LINE with stations ( not bus stops ) that can have TOD.

What matters is that new users, casual users, and visitors will take it.

What matters is that people who would never ride a bus will ride it.

What matters is that it's a visible part of the transit infrastructure.

What matters is that it's open for funding from multiple levels of government.

What matters is that it is a FOCUS now for the city.

[TransitFreak]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

...
What matters is that it is a FOCUS now for the city.

So long as the L line is viewed as a local/city initiative, and the Fraser Highway line is viewed as a regional line, which prioritizes fast, reliable movement amongst regional centres, providing seamless operations amongst them, and provincial funding is conditional on that.

[TransitFreak]

Just another thought, what is the incline from 176th up the hill to Clayton heights? Is that a grade that standard LRT vehicles can maneouvre or does skytrain and it's 6% LIM grade tolerance help navigate that. It is a bit of a hill to climb between 168th and 180th there

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by TransitFreak

Just another thought, what is the incline from 176th up the hill to Clayton heights? Is that a grade that standard LRT vehicles can maneouvre or does skytrain and it's 6% LIM grade tolerance help navigate that. It is a bit of a hill to climb between 168th and 180th there

Surrey Topographic map will show you what level(s) the areas are - I can't help you with the math. A quick google search came back with this book that says the maximum grade could be anywhere between 4 - 9%.