PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Parkway]

Street sweeping is a pointless exercise in Philadelphia because we don't do alternate side parking. The trash always builds up along the curb but we park on both sides of most streets so the sweepers will never get to it.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Also, how often do most cities run street sweepers? I get that people don't want to deal with the parking hassle, but it would really make a world of difference in most of Greater Center City.

FWIW, Manhattan sweeps its streets with the sweeper machines (affecting parking) TWICE A WEEK. They have an alternating street parking program where parking shifts to the opposite side for particular days to allow a sweeper access. It's really not hard, just takes the will power.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by 1487

first of all the street sweeping issue is more than just a financial issue, it's a logistical issue. Some want it, some don't. Secondly, last time I checked not all litter is laying in the street so having street sweeping won't magically make Philly cleaner. There is plenty of trash on sidewalks, in front yards, in abandoned lots, parks, etc. even if street sweeping is reinstated (which I think it will be to some degree) it's not going to address most residential areas in the city and thus isn't a magic bullet.

Cool excuses. I'm talking as much about litter as I am the debris sludge that accumulates in gutters of even incredibly affluent areas w/out proper sweeping. Every city in the world manages to sweep its streets, really isn't hard. Making excuses for the dirty city that can't shoot straight is lame.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Londonee

FWIW, Manhattan sweeps its streets with the sweeper machines (affecting parking) TWICE A WEEK. They have an alternating street parking program where parking shifts to the opposite side for particular days to allow a sweeper access. It's really not hard, just takes the will power.

I lived in Brooklyn for 5 years and it was a huge pain in the —. People were
CUT-THROAT on alternate parking days.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Redddog

I lived in Brooklyn for 5 years and it was a huge pain in the —. People were
CUT-THROAT on alternate parking days.

Yeah I know - and I'm not advocating for twice a week. But returning to the greater CC twice a month program really shouldn't be a killer.

I mean we used to have this program - Nutter slashed it immediately during the '09 recession.

[Larry King]

How much does it cost to expand the fleet of center city district guys that sweep the streets with brooms? Rather than major street sweep machines, just have those guys walk the block once a week or so. City could contract with the Center City District, i think that's what they do in Wash West.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Cool excuses. I'm talking as much about litter as I am the debris sludge that accumulates in gutters of even incredibly affluent areas w/out proper sweeping. Every city in the world manages to sweep its streets, really isn't hard. Making excuses for the dirty city that can't shoot straight is lame.

First of all individuals and property owners are primarily responsible for maintenance of litter in the city. There is no way around it. Now if people refuse to do that than people like yourself simply say it's the city's responsibility to take care of what some residents/landlords are not doing.

And I doubt every city in the world has street sweeping. I guess you haven't been to cities other than NYC. I'm not against it but even when it existed it was focused on specific corridors and it was once a week for part of the year. It didn't touch 90% of the blocks in the city.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Larry King

How much does it cost to expand the fleet of center city district guys that sweep the streets with brooms? Rather than major street sweep machines, just have those guys walk the block once a week or so. City could contract with the Center City District, i think that's what they do in Wash West.

CC property owners pay an additional fee to the CCD to fund it's operations. Don't think such a proposal would play out too well in most outlying neighborhoods. I think Clarke wanted to establish a NID near temple that would've added a surcharge to property owners to fund street cleaning and enforcement- the reception was less than enthusiastic.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by 1487

CC property owners pay an additional fee to the CCD to fund it's operations. Don't think such a proposal would play out too well in most outlying neighborhoods. I think Clarke wanted to establish a NID near temple that would've added a surcharge to property owners to fund street cleaning and enforcement- the reception was less than enthusiastic.

Yeah but if it's a city wide initiative people don't really have a choice. I'm curious if we can afford it (guessing we can't).

[1487]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Yeah but if it's a city wide initiative people don't really have a choice. I'm curious if we can afford it (guessing we can't).

It would take years to implement a full citywide cleaning program with mechanical sweeping. Not only setting up the parking rules and schedules but acquiring the equipment. One of the reasons street repaving has been sluggish (per articles on planphilly and other places) in recent years is that the Streets dept didn't have enough equipment to run simultaneous paving projects or they could only run 2 at a time. After years of requests they are finally in possession of enough equipment to add another paving crew each season. I can only imagine how many vehicles would be needed to cover the entire city as is done with trash pickup.

[Gonzo the Great]

Can I step away from street sweeping issues for a moment to ask , is there any " new " news about capping that block of I 95

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by 1487

First of all individuals and property owners are primarily responsible for maintenance of litter in the city. There is no way around it. Now if people refuse to do that than people like yourself simply say it's the city's responsibility to take care of what some residents/landlords are not doing.

And I doubt every city in the world has street sweeping. I guess you haven't been to cities other than NYC. I'm not against it but even when it existed it was focused on specific corridors and it was once a week for part of the year. It didn't touch 90% of the blocks in the city.

Way to aim low.

Every major city in the US has it. Very few don't. For sure, on the East Coast NYC, Baltimore, DC, and Boston have it.

And actually, there are huge swaths of the city where no property owner fronts the street or sidewalk. I'm talking about areas around parks, highways, highway underpasses, highway on ramps, schools, churches, subways stations, police stations, etc.

As a homeowner, am I responsible for sweeping the two blocks of street frontage surrounding the school on my block? I actually do because I'm that OCD, but I'd much appreciate it if the city did it instead. I could be doing much more valuable things with my time...

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Way to aim low.

Every major city in the US has it. Very few don't. For sure, on the East Coast NYC, Baltimore, DC, and Boston have it.

And actually, there are huge swaths of the city where no property owner fronts the street or sidewalk. I'm talking about areas around parks, highways, highway underpasses, highway on ramps, schools, churches, subways stations, police stations, etc.

As a homeowner, am I responsible for sweeping the two blocks of street frontage surrounding the school on my block? I actually do because I'm that OCD, but I'd much appreciate it if the city did it instead. I could be doing much more valuable things with my time...

Yep. Apologies and excuses ring hollow. Philly is failing in this regard. Period.

[eixample]

Count me as being in the any-anti-litter-initiative-without-street-sweeping-is-pointless camp. Addressing litter without street sweeping is like trying to clean your house without running the vacuum. Litter index, LOL

Originally Posted by 1487

first of all the street sweeping issue is more than just a financial issue, it's a logistical issue.

I know you defend the city about everything, but the filth is indefensible. It's not a logistics issue (every other major city does it!), it's a political will issue. Kenney doesn't have the balls to push for street sweeping even though it is far and away the most important thing we could do to combat the trash problem.

[allovertown]

The reason why street sweeping doesn't happen in Philadelphia is pretty simple. It costs money. And when politicians spend money they like to be praised and celebrated, like they're toddlers who just went number two in the toilet for the first time.

Implementing street sweeping will be thankless. Plenty of people will like it, including many on this board. But at the end of the day our praise will not be nearly as loud as its critics. This is a city where parking is a war, tires get slashed over parking regularly, and I can recall at least one instance in the past where a throat got slashed.

People flip the — out if you just tell them to obey the law and park legally and maybe not park on the median like animals. Ticketing and towing people for not moving their car that was parked in a legal parking sport where they may have parked for 40 years? Holy —. I really think some of you here may not even understand the pot of fetid — any politician that does this will be stepping into. People will go nuts.

But all of this is still not an excuse. Sometimes politicians should do the right thing, even when it is thankless and people will rake them over the coals for it. For our part though, rather than complaining on this board, complain to your councilman. We should not let the laziest, shittiest Philadelphians dictate what happens on this issue cause they don't feel like moving their — cars. Street sweeping was ended in part due to Philadelphia's budget problems, but also in large part because it was unpopular. It's easy to cut a program that costs money when it seem like no one likes it. Make sure Mayor Kenney and the city council understand that this a program A LOT of Philadelphians want. If they start to think there are more of us supporting this type of program than those who oppose it, it will be much easier for them to justify paying the expense to make it happen.

[City Wide]

What a well needed discussion. But probably not the best forum.
I've been living mostly in various parts of UC for 40 years. Back in Fat Frank's era the City had actual people with brooms cleaning the streets, up to now where every Monday morning I see a street sweeping machine/tank racing down Chester Ave, where cars are parked at the curb, often in piles of trash, effectively not doing one bit of good. The City was awash in litter/trash 40 years ago, and it still is.
I've never been in/visited a city that is as trashy as Philly. Trashy as in real trash.
This is not an excuse at all, but our fair City has a well earned rap for being over come at times by trash. I see people regularly open their car door at a stop sign and just lay a bag of trash right in the street and drive on, or just throw their fast food remains out the car window. I've even seen cops do it.
The dirtiest day in my area is trash pick up day. People put out bags of trash the night before and cats/dogs/squirrels tear the bags open, people create neat piles of odds and ends that other people pick through and spread around, and on a windy day its terrible. Trash every where, in the trees, stuck under cars, chasing school kids down the block, chain leak fences can look they are made from trash.
Picking up the trash is a thankless job, but one I think every City employee should have to do one week a year for at least 5 years. City council should have to do trash pick up once a month. But if 90% of whats on the curb ends up in the trash truck, I'd be pleasantly surprised. The trash workers just don't seem to care. A box breaks as they are moving it to the truck, no big deal, just leave it there in the middle of the street.

What I'm saying is that litter/trash needs to be approached from a variety of different fronts. One of which is that the city/City needs to break its culture of treating litter/trash like its magic, that you can just throw anything down anywhere and expect it to magically disappear.

In UC there are tens of crews in small vacuum trucks and sometimes with real man pushed brooms. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent yearly and have been for 10 or 15 years, and I'd bet big money that the litter/trash problem is just as big now as when UC district started.

I'm all in favor for the City doing a lot more then it now does, including cleaning the streets. But there needs to be ALOT of work done and done for a long time and in different ways trying to reduce the source issue.

End of speech (this is an issue I care a lot about and have tried to engage the City in, rather unsuccessfully)

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Lastly, enact a Bottle Bill. A homeless guy could make $50 in an afternoon just walking the river-river 2 miles along Washington Avenue and collecting plastic/aluminum cans. At $.10 a pop I'd think we'd see a significant reduction in waste.

Once the State required cities, including Philly, to enact recycling methods Philly has very actively lobbed against Bottle bills/deposit bills whenever they have been introduced at the State level. The City's point of view is that if cans especially were taken out of their recycling stream they would lose one of the primary sources of funding that gets used for the rest of recycling program.

I can understand this with my brain, but then I go outside and regularly pick up 5 to 10 cans and bottles on just my block. At that point I say — the logic, turn this trash into cash and make it worth the effort for the less fortunate to pick up other peoples trash. Plus maybe some people might care alittle more if they were throwing nickels out their windows.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Gonzo the Great

Can I step away from street sweeping issues for a moment to ask , is there any " new " news about capping that block of I 95

there won't be any news until funding is in place. Kenney PROPOSED adding 200M in capital funding- until budget is passed and bonds are sold the money doesn't exist.

[Justin7]

Originally Posted by Yurkek

I and my friend are trying to build a platform for people to organize cleanups in their blocks because the city is failing to provide basic sweeping services.

Here is the website in its early stages - http://notinphilly.org/
Here is an article about our website - https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/philadelphia-clean-up-litter-website

Really nice work.

I may be the only person on the planet who is bothered by this, but: .main-nav a {cursor: pointer;}

[1487]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Way to aim low.

Every major city in the US has it. Very few don't. For sure, on the East Coast NYC, Baltimore, DC, and Boston have it.

And actually, there are huge swaths of the city where no property owner fronts the street or sidewalk. I'm talking about areas around parks, highways, highway underpasses, highway on ramps, schools, churches, subways stations, police stations, etc.

As a homeowner, am I responsible for sweeping the two blocks of street frontage surrounding the school on my block? I actually do because I'm that OCD, but I'd much appreciate it if the city did it instead. I could be doing much more valuable things with my time...

nothing comes without a cost. Universal, every block street sweeping twice a week sounds great. Good luck getting that out of existing budget. And let me know how well this works in the rowhouse neighborhoods with no rear driveways where parking is already a nightmare (I don't live in such an area BTW) and compliance with the no parking rules will be low. Everything cost money, making demands it easy- paying for it is another thing. Everyone wants more services, no one wants to come out of pocket for more services. I'd support a plastic bag tax to fund cleaning- but based on how soda tax has gone you can just imagine the industry and retailer push back to such an idea.