New Downtown Calgary Arena

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Does anyone know if the grade in the West Village needs to be built up like it did in East Village? I'm sure the question has come up, but I can't recall.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Does anyone know if the grade in the West Village needs to be built up like it did in East Village? I'm sure the question has come up, but I can't recall.

Looks like no, in my non-expert opionion. There might be updates pending, but Alberta's flood hazard maps (see http://maps.srd.alberta.ca/floodhazard/) show that substantially all of east village is in some kind flood fringe, but substantially none of west village is. Just tiny-width strips of the riverbank.

[Calgarian]

Thanks for that guys, glad that's one thing they won't have to do if CalgaryNext somehow goes ahead.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Well the flames have ~$400 million on the table, can probably count on a similar or only slightly discounted amount for an arena only structure. Can probably come in south of $600 million of inside the property line costs.

You keep saying that the Flames have 400M on the line. That's not exactly what's going to happen. See Edmonton arena for further details.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Socguy

You keep saying that the Flames have 400M on the line. That's not exactly what's going to happen. See Edmonton arena for further details.

You think there is going to be a bait and switch?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

Only if you believe that "not having an NHL hockey team" isn't an option. Personally, I sure hope it doesn't come to that, but I can think of a few things I'd rather do with 500-1,000 million public dollars than CalgaryNEXT (whatever the actual cost of creosote remediation and other infrastructure changes would be required right NOW if it were to be built.) I hope we can find some middle ground.

Losing the Flames will be a huge hit to our quality of life and image, especially at this time. If the Flames leave will never get a better arena based on the track record of the city when it comes to building such infrastructure.

As for the creosote costs, that cost needs to be removed from the discussion. If the City's plans go ahead they will incur the same cost and we'll end up paying for it. Nenshi and the administration are being very disingenuous in trying to make it sound like this cost will only be incurred if Calgary NEXT is built in that location. Same goes for the road costs. A lot of those costs are going to be incurred regardless of what happens.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Purposefully deconstructing half of it after the Olympics so it can still function as an amphitheater but look like ruins sounds like a great plan. But I digress.

Innnnnteresting

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

As for the creosote costs, that cost needs to be removed from the discussion. If the City's plans go ahead they will incur the same cost and we'll end up paying for it. Nenshi and the administration are being very disingenuous in trying to make it sound like this cost will only be incurred if Calgary NEXT is built in that location. Same goes for the road costs. A lot of those costs are going to be incurred regardless of what happens.

What are you talking about, the city has major plans for that area that factor in the creosote cleanup and re-working the infrastructure. It's a long term plan for the city as they need to figure all of this out (likely a 25 year plan) and the Flames are trying to fast track it before any of this work is done.

The cleanup will probably go to court as Domtar should have to pay for a good chunk, but they don't want to. In addition, there should be Provincial and Federal money to help the cleanup, and neither has said anything as far as I know. This cleanup needs to be figured out before anything can happen with CalgaryNEXT (or West Village for that matter), that's why the city is pretty much saying no.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

What are you talking about, the city has major plans for that area that factor in the creosote cleanup and re-working the infrastructure. It's a long term plan for the city as they need to figure all of this out (likely a 25 year plan) and the Flames are trying to fast track it before any of this work is done.

The cleanup will probably go to court as Domtar should have to pay for a good chunk, but they don't want to. In addition, there should be Provincial and Federal money to help the cleanup, and neither has said anything as far as I know. This cleanup needs to be figured out before anything can happen with CalgaryNEXT (or West Village for that matter), that's why the city is pretty much saying no.

I've been very clear about what I'm getting at. The bottom line is that the cleanup cost of the creosote will happen regardless of what gets built. Nenshi and the administration are doing their best to make it sound like this is only an issue for Calgary NEXT. If higher levels of government and/or Domtar pay for the costs then they need to be deducted from the cost of Calgary NEXT. The City's estimate of $1.8 billion is another example of the administration grossly inflating cost estimates of projects they don't want to see move forward. If they were elected officials turnout this fall would be a record.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I've been very clear about what I'm getting at. The bottom line is that the cleanup cost of the creosote will happen regardless of what gets built. Nenshi and the administration are doing their best to make it sound like this is only an issue for Calgary NEXT. If higher levels of government and/or Domtar pay for the costs then they need to be deducted from the cost of Calgary NEXT. The City's estimate of $1.8 billion is another example of the administration grossly inflating cost estimates of projects they don't want to see move forward. If they were elected officials turnout this fall would be a record.

You missed the point, they are tying it to Calgarnext because CSEC is trying to fast track something that hasn't been fully evaluated yet, much less resolved. I agree with the city 100%, this is a long term play and trying to make it happen now is just short sighted, especially when you consider the tax revenue generated to pay down the arena will take away from the tax revenue needed to pay for the remediation. CalgaryNext is half brained at best, and the numbers just flat out don't make sense for the city.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

As for the creosote costs, that cost needs to be removed from the discussion. If the City's plans go ahead they will incur the same cost and we'll end up paying for it.

I disagree that it "needs to be removed from the discussion". Obviously the creosote is neither the Flames' fault nor responsibility. But they're forcing the issue and forcing the money to be spent "now", and largely ignoring it. Or calling it "an opportunity" (Ken King's words in a CBC interview last week). It's an enormous issue and we can't talk about the project without talking about the city's full obligations that it'll have to take on.

The distinction of "city must pay remediation now" vs. "city must eventually pay for remediation" matters a lot if the remediation can occur a few decades down the road (whether we can wait that long is a whole other debate).

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

I disagree that it "needs to be removed from the discussion". Obviously the creosote is neither the Flames' fault nor responsibility. But they're forcing the issue and forcing the money to be spent "now", and largely ignoring it. Or calling it "an opportunity" (Ken King's words in a CBC interview last week). It's an enormous issue and we can't talk about the project without talking about the city's full obligations that it'll have to take on.

The distinction of "city must pay remediation now" vs. "city must eventually pay for remediation" matters a lot if the remediation can occur a few decades down the road (whether we can wait that long is a whole other debate).

Agreed! What the Flames are trying to do is get people to make this decision based on emotion, not logic.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Agreed! What the Flames are trying to do is get people to make this decision based on emotion, not logic.

LOL! That's what the City is doing and you've fallen for it.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

You missed the point, they are tying it to Calgarnext because CSEC is trying to fast track something that hasn't been fully evaluated yet, much less resolved. I agree with the city 100%, this is a long term play and trying to make it happen now is just short sighted, especially when you consider the tax revenue generated to pay down the arena will take away from the tax revenue needed to pay for the remediation. CalgaryNext is half brained at best, and the numbers just flat out don't make sense for the city.

The City has had about half a century to come up with plans to deal with the cleanup and you want to give them another 25 years? Hopefully the next council is more forward thinking and a lot more honest with the public than this one.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The City has had about half a century to come up with plans to deal with the cleanup and you want to give them another 25 years? Hopefully the next council is more forward thinking and a lot more honest with the public than this one.

You can't be this thick, honestly. THIS ISN'T IN THE BUDGET YET! it's a long term play as there are far too many variables that haven't been solved (obviously!). They are beginning to look at this (part of the West Village master plan), but until they figure out who pays, nothing is going to happen. The city isn't falling for the emotional baiting from the Flames (threatening to leave and getting everyone up in arms about it isn't being logical by the way, that's pulling at emotions). We need to solve this issue before we can have any discussion on CalgaryNext (this is the city's argument, sounds more like logic than emotion to me), why is that so hard to understand? I might as well debate this with the wall beside me, it will present a far more logical argument than you are lol.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The City has had about half a century to come up with plans to deal with the cleanup and you want to give them another 25 years? Hopefully the next council is more forward thinking and a lot more honest with the public than this one.

Ok you really are this dumb. Council has been pretty forthcoming here, that's why they say no! If there isn't the several tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in city coffers, they can't go ahead and do it can they?

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

LOL! That's what the City is doing and you've fallen for it.

The city is saying CalgaryNEXT is a non-starter because it will take too much money out of the city's pockets and doesn't align with existing plans for West Village. This is a financial decision, not emotional.

CSEC is threatening to leave the city without a hockey team (among other whiny themes Ken King employs). This is precisely designed for emotional reaction.

Nenshi and the rest of city council/administration have taken a serious look at a non-serious, elementary-school proposal put forward by CSEC (seriously, a couple crappy renders and ballpark underestimated cost). More effort than the proposal was worth. They said no, and are now spending time and effort investigating a Victoria Park option. I don't see why you are shitting on the city for doing their due diligence while the CSEC takes cheap shots at fans in order to get people like you angry at Nenshi (you seem to be King's target audience). If they hired some proper designers, financial estimators and urban planners to develop a real proposal, I don't think Nenshi would have laughed at it as hard as he did at CalgaryNEXT.

[CalgaryAlex]

If the city contributes to an arena, can they guarantee a revenue stream while avoiding 100% ownership of a depreciating asset? Can they take revenue from non-sports-related events at the arena? Can they own and lease out street-facing CRUs or even incorporate some residential space on the corners of the lot the arena gets built on? Can they guarantee no parking at the facility, to increase curb parking and transit revenue?

I like Pennypacker's idea of incorporating a Green Line station into the block that the arena is on, as an upgrade to a transit station has benefits to all users of the service. As he said, this could contribute to a portion of the structure itself.

Could the city gather a group of developers to help finance the project by giving tax incentives (or discounted land if city-owned) to developments on brownfield land around the arena if they help with the arena's cost, thus increasing property taxes in the area? I'm specifically thinking of the Victoria Park site here.

Seems to me this whole thing requires a lot of creativity. Anything other than the city handing a billion dollars to the CSEC and getting nothing but Corndogger's temporary approval of Nenshi in return. I'm also much happier having a basic, MTS Centre style arena than a fancy arena like what is presented for CalgaryNEXT.

[MalcolmTucker]

If the city contributes to an arena, can they guarantee a revenue stream while avoiding 100% ownership of a depreciating asset?

Taking part of the revenue stream means taking part of the maintenance obligation, which unless the arena is way more productive than the current dome, would most likely be cash flow negative. It might sound better but it really isn't.

Can they take revenue from non-sports-related events at the arena?

Wouldn't be a good thing based on the city's experience with the dome.

an they own and lease out street-facing CRUs

Didn't work out well for the city with the convention centre. Edmonton deleted similar things from rogers place to save money.

even incorporate some residential space on the corners of the lot the arena gets built on?

trying to build ancillary facilities on the Skydome turned into quite the boondoggle, but the office works for the air canada centre. So the mileage may vary, but I doubt it makes sense trying to fit residential building services into the limited footprint of the building. Maybe N3 type towers, but not making much money there, and have to engineer the heck out of it to stop vibrations.

I like Pennypacker's idea of incorporating a Green Line station into the block that the arena is on, as an upgrade to a transit station has benefits to all users of the service. As he said, this could contribute to a portion of the structure itself.

Probably more expensive than keeping it distinct, but if it defrays the cost in a roundabout way, might be more palatable politically.

Could the city gather a group of developers to help finance the project by giving tax incentives (or discounted land if city-owned) to developments on brownfield land around the arena if they help with the arena's cost, thus increasing property taxes in the area?

The way property taxes work, this is no different than cutting a cheque from property tax revenues.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Losing the Flames will be a huge hit to our quality of life and image, especially at this time. If the Flames leave will never get a better arena based on the track record of the city when it comes to building such infrastructure.

"A huge hit to our quality of life". Who's using emotional arguments now? The Flames leaving wouldn't negatively affect me one bit, in fact I think my quality of life would be improved with the nonsense of that professional sport out the city. But I appreciate others place value on it, and having an arena has the side benefits like bigger/better concerts so I would support some public money being used in a way that gets the maximum public benefit, ie exactly what the city appears to be studying, not the turd sandwich of a deal the Flames/NHL want to bully us into eating.

[PPAR]

So in the Next proposal, do the Flames own the land? If they do, it seems to me that they will take credit from the public purse for remediation of the property, build the project, and in 40 years when the arena is at end of life, Calgary has 2.5M people and is possibly in the midst of another boom, they will cash out of a hugely valuable land investment...