Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Pinion]

Article about north shore transit

The North Shore’s three municipalities are getting on the same page on transportation issues, at least at the staff level.

City of North Vancouver, District of West Vancouver and District of North Vancouver councils all endorsed a plan Monday night to form a North Shore municipal transportation committee.

Under the committee’s terms of reference, top transportation, engineering and planning staff from each local government will meet at least four times a year to co-ordinate on local priorities, consult with and advocate to senior levels of government and outside agencies like TransLink and report back to their respective councils.

Some of the suggested priorities brought up by West Vancouver director of engineer and transportation Ray Fung in his presentation to council included: considering a single North Shore transit operator, exploring the possibility of a joint bus depot, lobbying for a B-line bus from Maplewood to Dundarave, completion of the Spirit Trail, improvements to Highway 1’s interchanges and better traffic management at provincially controlled intersections like Taylor Way and Marine Drive.

“I believe that the municipal voice is stronger when advocating to senior governments if we work together rather than separately,” Fung said. “Even between neighbouring jurisdictions, say between West Van and North Van, there would be better co-ordination of our own actions or individual municipal actions if we met together more formally.”

Not on that list is a third crossing over (or under) Burrard Inlet, unless it is for transit, not personal vehicles.

“The fact is, the City of Vancouver is not supportive of more vehicles entering their downtown core,” Fung said.

Although enthusiasm for the plan ranged from warm to highly skeptical, the idea received unanimous support from all 21 elected council members in the three municipal halls.

“I think it’s a long time coming,” said Coun Lisa Muri at DNV council. “It would be nice if we had a committee to look at these things, especially at the pace that we’re changing and the with challenges that we’re facing, and, certainly in the last five years, we’re facing great trouble in movement across the North Shore. I fully support this. I think the community will fully support this.”

Others, however, showed concern about the lack of political or public representation on the committee.

“I’m just concerned that there won’t be enough opportunity for the political bodies who are ultimately going to have to advocate … to steer, have input, keep apprised of the activities of this committee,” said West Vancouver Coun. Mary-Ann Booth. “We also hear from our residents a lot about problems but they also come up with some pretty good solutions. Where is that link? Where is that opportunity?”

District of North Vancouver Coun. Roger Bassam pointed out the three municipalities often don’t share the same goals. And if the North Shore wants to speak with one voice, it should be pursuing amalgamation, he added.

“I know historically we haven’t done a good job of sharing information so I certainly see this as a good opportunity to better share information, certainly at a staff level, but ultimately we’re going to need one political decision-making group ... for the North Shore. I’m always a little wary that these committees are offered up as a substitute towards a unified political voice for a community,” he said.

West Vancouver Couns. Craig Cameron too suggested the transportation committee might be a “half-measure.”

“The mayor might strangle me for this but I think we also need to be discussing larger planning issues …. with the other North Shore municipalities because there’s no sense in us making planning decisions in isolation and the District (of North Vancouver) doing the opposite,” he said.

At North Vancouver City council, Mayor Darrell Mussatto said, while there are “a lot of commonalities” throughout the North Shore, the city has made it clear its top three clear priorities: public transit, walking and cycling.

City Coun. Linda Buchanan noted the worsening congestion is thanks in large part to North Shore workers who can’t afford the cost of housing here and must commute.

“It becomes our problem because it’s impacting our local roads which then impacts our economy,” she said.

- See more at: http://www.nsnews.com/news/councils-unit...-matters-1.13669900#sthash.7xqO73BW.dpuf

[cganuelas1995]

Once, I rode an early morning 404 to Brighouse, but I saw an "EXPRESS" on the sign and instead of terminating at the bus bay that is about 4 light years away from the station, it dropped us off at the bay that the 401 uses. Why can't it do that on regular routings?

[Reecemartin]

Cool article that references Toronto in particular but, has many ideas that might be worth consideration in Vancouver, take a look...

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/to...www.theglobeandmail.com&click=sf_globefb

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Once, I rode an early morning 404 to Brighouse, but I saw an "EXPRESS" on the sign and instead of terminating at the bus bay that is about 4 light years away from the station, it dropped us off at the bay that the 401 uses. Why can't it do that on regular routings?

Hopefully the new bus loop doesn't take too long, so it shouldn't be a problem much longer

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Cool article that references Toronto in particular but, has many ideas that might be worth consideration in Vancouver, take a look...

https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/news/to...www.theglobeandmail.com&click=sf_globefb

I'm surprised that they chose to reference Paris over Vancouver (we were the ones who pioneered driverless operation for everyone - and in the same country, no less...)

[towerseeker101]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm surprised that they chose to reference Paris over Vancouver (we were the ones who pioneered driverless operation for everyone - and in the same country, no less...)

Simple, Toronto is the centre of the universe and nothing exists west of Toronto.

[Metro-One]

The ironic thing about the city of Vancouver insisting that a third crossing has no road lanes is that they have actually driven a nail into the coffin for ever having a new transit crossing over the Burrard Inlet.

Hate to burst anyones bubble, but a transit only crossing will never ever be built. Only a multimodal bridge / tunnel structure will ever be worth the massive cost for an entirely new link.

Instead what is going to happen is that eventually the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge will be replaced with a 10 lane structure (since it is an existing freeway and does not enter Vancouver I can see the province being able to pull this off).

This is a far worse plan than say, keeping the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge at 6 lanes, closing the Lions Gate to general traffic, and building a new 6 lane crossing between the two existing bridges (a couple kms east of downtown) that is rail transit capable (or better yet opened with rail transit, preferably skytrain, from the get go).

Sadly, due to the city of Vancouver's black and white views we will never get this, and instead will end up having one super bridge, one tiny bridge forever funnelling traffic through Stanley park and downtown Vancouver, and no mass transit.

[SFUVancouver]

When I lived in Toronto, it was remarkable how much cognitive dissonance there seemed to be about the Toronto WayTM of going about things (2 person subway operation, no elevated structures, few articulated buses, etc.) and there being any potential for alternatives. I would suggeset that Vancouver has been using automated trains on elevated structures for (then) more than two decades and we enjoy the benefits of higher frequency and longer hours of service at lower costs. There was routinely just this disconnect about things we take for granted here:

"How do the doors close by themselves without hurting people?" The same way elevators aren't scything people in two left, right, and center; there are sensors.

"What if there's a problem, how will the train know to stop?" There are computers monitoring the whole system and it knows where the trains are located. The trains talk to the main computer and just slow down or stop as required.

"What if there's a problem on the train? Like an accident or a fight" People press the emergency alarm strip and/or use the intercom to talk to SkyTrain control and the train waits at the next station for staff, paramedics, or police to arrive. It's not like the driver of a TTC train is going to stop between stations and break up a fight or perform CPR.

"Elevated trains are awful. People would never accept those here." Not even if they cost lest to build and maintain than tunnels, and let you look out the window at things during your commute, plus full cell phone service everywhere?

Etc.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

"Elevated trains are awful. People would never accept those here." Not even if they cost lest to build and maintain than tunnels, and let you look out the window at things during your commute, plus full cell phone service everywhere?

This is a real hot button for me. I think the transit experience is so much more pleasant on an elevated right of way. And the Skytrain guideways are really intrusive at all compared to elevated freeways or older elevated transit structures. Plus, they make for great greenways that afford a bit of rain protection or shade in the hot summer.

The whole "ugly elevated rail" argument really irks me. I think the experience for transit riders should matter just as much.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The ironic thing about the city of Vancouver insisting that a third crossing has no road lanes is that they have actually driven a nail into the coffin for ever having a new transit crossing over the Burrard Inlet.

Hate to burst anyones bubble, but a transit only crossing will never ever be built. Only a multimodal bridge / tunnel structure will ever be worth the massive cost for an entirely new link.

Instead what is going to happen is that eventually the Iron Workers Memorial Bridge will be replaced with a 10 lane structure (since it is an existing freeway and does not enter Vancouver I can see the province being able to pull this off).

This seems unlikely since they just committed to a four lane bottleneck at Lynn Creek for non-local traffic for the rest of our lives. And of course the eternal dilemma of the bridges going through native reserves.

Wouldn't a skytrain bridge similar to the one to Surrey over the Fraser be relatively cheap? Next to Ironworkers?

[Metro-One]

Would make no sense to have a skytrain bridge that far east, far too much backtracking. (at that point may as well just keep the Sea Bus and have a local LRT line feeding it along the North Shore)

Only way the North Shore is getting skytrain would be a Hastings Line that has a branch that extends to the North Shore not too far east of downtown. This also happens to be the most appropriate spot for a new road crossing to replace the Lions Gate.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by towerseeker101

Simple, Toronto is the centre of the universe and nothing exists west of Toronto.

On top of that, they can never, ever, admit that something somewhere else in Canada is done better.

"Of course fancy Europe of high tech Asia might have better (read: automated) metros, but as if they have anything like that out West to get them to the oil patch or sawmill."

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Pinion

This seems unlikely since they just committed to a four lane bottleneck at Lynn Creek for non-local traffic for the rest of our lives. And of course the eternal dilemma of the bridges going through native reserves.

Wouldn't a skytrain bridge similar to the one to Surrey over the Fraser be relatively cheap? Next to Ironworkers?

Wouldn't Ironworkers be one of the worst places to stick a rapid transit connection to Vancouver?

[Reecemartin]

You definetly characterized the mood In Southern Ontario very accurately, on the Urban Toronto forums I'm always surprised to watch people struggle to come up with solutions for issues that they would have if only they'd look to Vancouver.

Things are rapidly changing though, rapid transit in Ontario is absolutely exploding right now. There have been numerous new BRTs set up, the TTC is modernising nicely, GO Transit is going to be transformed, and there are about 10 LRTs currently in planning stages. It all goes to show that the right attitude can change things.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

"How do the doors close by themselves without hurting people?" The same way elevators aren't scything people in two left, right, and center; there are sensors.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Wouldn't Ironworkers be one of the worst places to stick a rapid transit connection to Vancouver?

Yes but it also seems to be one of the few realistic options (Phibbs exchange terminus for a Hastings line).

With Lynn Creek town centre densifying rapidly, Phibbs exchange could easily be seen as another desirable transit hub neighbourhood like Lonsdale if they did it right. And a lot of people from Lonsdale already transfer at Phibbs as it is. I did when I worked in the DTES.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Pinion

Yes but it also seems to be one of the few realistic options (Phibbs exchange terminus for a Hastings line).

With Lynn Creek town centre densifying rapidly, Phibbs exchange could easily be seen as another desirable transit hub neighbourhood like Lonsdale if they did it right. And a lot of people from Lonsdale already transfer at Phibbs as it is. I did when I worked in the DTES.

Agreed. When there will be a Hastings skytrain extension then a expanded Iron Workers memorial bridge could have very efficient bus rapid transit lines with exit/entrances off Hastings and dedicated exit/entrance to Phibbs exchange, with a station in the Kootney loop area. It would be 5 min bus ride during rush hour from Phibbs to a Hastings rapid transit line.

In the future there could also be a revival of a highway (as proposed pre Olympics) from Iron workers up towards Seymour lake and tunneled over to the north end of Indian arm and on its way to Squamish, which would help most metro Vancouver traffic bound for Squamish/Whistler to pretty much by pass the north shore.

A 1 station spur off of a Hastings line to Phibbs exchange built along with a new Iron Workers bridge could also work. (in the far off future). Ultimately though the Iron Workers bridge should act as the main access route to the North Shore and beyond and should in the future have maximum capacity. 5+ lanes. Maybe they could build 3 lanes on each side of the bridge, then demolish the old bridge and complete 4 or 6 more lanes in its place without too much disruption. Looks like the space is there.

With all this though there would still be a need to maintain a good service over the Lions Gate bridge and the sea bus but this would certainly help allot of commuters and help the traffic on the north shore.

One has to remember that not everyone on the North Shore commutes downtown. Most of the growth in metro Vancouver is east and south of the Iron workers bridge.

[jbrizzy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Would make no sense to have a skytrain bridge that far east, far too much backtracking. (at that point may as well just keep the Sea Bus and have a local LRT line feeding it along the North Shore)

Only way the North Shore is getting skytrain would be a Hastings Line that has a branch that extends to the North Shore not too far east of downtown. This also happens to be the most appropriate spot for a new road crossing to replace the Lions Gate.

The distance from Waterfront to a station at Ambleside via the Ironworkers would be about the same as the Expo line to New West. Yeah, in that case someone headed downtown from Park Royal would probably be better off taking a bus over the LGB, and someone in Lonsdale would probably take the Seabus. But that hypothetical trip would be a maximum of 30-35 minutes, so depending on bus times/traffic, wouldn't be a bad option. Plus, that line would greatly increase access to downtown from the eastern north shore as well as improving connectivity across it.

[Pinion]

Obviously a connection to Phibbs wouldn't be for people going to/from West Van. But it would serve people from Lonsdale to Deep Cove, and that along with the upcoming interchange improvements would be enough to get Ironworkers free flowing again. Nothing's gonna get West Vancouverites using skytrain, while the Phibbs area is by far the lowest income area of the north shore.

Originally Posted by cornholio

One has to remember that not everyone on the North Shore commutes downtown. Most of the growth in metro Vancouver is east and south of the Iron workers bridge.

The recent gridlock is from people commuting to the north shore, not north shore residents. But yeah ideally it would connect to the eastern lines as well.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Agreed. When there will be a Hastings skytrain extension then a expanded Iron Workers memorial bridge could have very efficient bus rapid transit lines with exit/entrances off Hastings and dedicated exit/entrance to Phibbs exchange, with a station in the Kootney loop area. It would be 5 min bus ride during rush hour from Phibbs to a Hastings rapid transit line.

In the future there could also be a revival of a highway (as proposed pre Olympics) from Iron workers up towards Seymour lake and tunneled over to the north end of Indian arm and on its way to Squamish, which would help most metro Vancouver traffic bound for Squamish/Whistler to pretty much by pass the north shore.

I think the most likely routes to that would be up either the east side of Indian Arm, or up Buntzen Lake. The most likely route going that way would be up Harrison Lake though.

I haven't heard anything about going up Indian Arm recently. The Seymour, Capilano and Coquitlam watersheds are no-go areas, because Metro Van is very protective of their water quality.

I've been hearing that Jordan Sturdy and some of the First Nations Groups are advocating for the Stsailes Rd. (West Harrison FSR) to be paved. That would be pretty sweet in my opinion, and it would take a lot of the pressure off advocacy for another route to Whistler. That area also has fairly limited amounts of restricted access lands, and the logging road is treacherous as hell. So it's a win-win compared to other roads.