Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Though it was indeed pretty stupid to make a
promise like that that she knew she scoudlnt keep.

That's just par for the course in politics.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Sheba

With the geography it makes more sense to have King George elevated (it's relatively flat - the dip in the middle of the route wouldn't be an issue) and have 104th tunnelled. Height about sea level at the intersections along 104th:

King George: 85m
Whalley Blvd: 95m
140th: 109m
144th: 110m
148th: 100m
150th: 96m

Of course it'll cost too much so it won't happen.

Anytime you are building through an existing road network all kinds of costs start adding up. All the signalling systems at the intersections will have to be upgraded to give trains priority. Motorists are going to love that. Also, going from ground-level to elevated and back adds in more costs. Whatever budget they thing they have, cost overruns will happen for sure.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Anytime you are building through an existing road network all kinds of costs start adding up. All the signalling systems at the intersections will have to be upgraded to give trains priority. Motorists are going to love that. Also, going from ground-level to elevated and back adds in more costs. Whatever budget they thing they have, cost overruns will happen for sure.

It's not like if you build Skytrain it's not going to have significant costs as well, no matter how you spin it a ground level LRT and an elevated Skytrain Line are not the same level of project. And obviously the corridor doesn't see enough traffic for a Skytrain line right now.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Alot of people seem to think that this project will die but, I think that's quite unlikely. Not only is the city very much working to get it stared ASAP, but in addition I don't think the public as a whole looks at it very negatively the same way it is on this forum whether or not you think that it's a bad plan.

If you think the gnashing of teeth here about the Surrey LRT is bad, you haven't been to Reddit where hate for the LRT gets you 50 upvotes, and support gets you 60 downvotes.

Yet, us people who use forums and social media are ignored when Global, CTV, CKNW, etc decide to light the pitchforks and go after the skytrain's tech every few months when a 10 minute delay that is not a Red India happens.

The fact is, people aren't caring, because they're just going to drive around it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

And obviously the corridor doesn't see enough traffic for a Skytrain line right now.

Once again, by that logic, we'd NEVER have SkyTrain. Burnaby, New West, Cambie Street and all the others were just as suburban as Surrey and Langley before they got their rail lines. Transit drives density just as much as the other way around.

So the real question is "how dense should we expect Surrey to be a few decades from now?"

If we're looking at a few dozen townhomes/condos, like Arbutus, then by all means, build surface LRT. But if the "high rise forest" renders are anything to go by, we'll probably end up blowing more money on ripping the LRT tracks up and building a SkyTrain anyway in about 20-30 years. Might as well cut out the middleman and save up to build the SkyTrain.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Once again, by that logic, we'd NEVER have SkyTrain. Burnaby, New West, Cambie Street and all the others were just as suburban as Surrey and Langley before they got their rail lines. Transit drives density just as much as the other way around.

So the real question is "how dense should we expect Surrey to be a few decades from now?"

If we're looking at a few dozen townhomes/condos, like Arbutus, then by all means, build surface LRT. But if the "high rise forest" renders are anything to go by, we'll probably end up blowing more money on ripping the LRT tracks up and building a SkyTrain anyway in about 20-30 years. Might as well cut out the middleman and save up to build the SkyTrain.

These corridors are unlikely to see the same growth as Fraser Highway, and nonetheless the funding isn't there to build Skytrain anyways. It's not like we can't increase LRT capacity if the demand justifies it.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

These corridors are unlikely to see the same growth as Fraser Highway, and nonetheless the funding isn't there to build Skytrain anyways. It's not like we can't increase LRT capacity if the demand justifies it.

How? There isn't even a real business case made yet. Just a bunch of nonsense about creating jobs and development opportunities. Nothing about improving transit options.

https://www.surrey.ca/bylawsandcouncillibrary/MIN_TIC_2015_07_24.pdf

1. Transit Update
File: 8310-01
The Manager of Rapid Transit & Strategic Projects provided the following update
to the Committee on Transit:
a) Surrey LRT Project
• Progress on the Surrey LRT project continues with expected
completion of the design by the end of August.
• Phase 3A will deliver a reference concept design with a +-30% cost
estimate.
• The goal is to come up with a cost estimate +-15% to use for the
business case.
• P3 business case to be completed and delivered to PPP Canada by
March, 2016.
• Despite the outcome of recent plebiscite, the technical work of the
program is continuing.

Then...
https://www.surrey.ca/bylawsandcouncillibrary/MIN_TIC_2015_09_11.pdf

The Manager of Rapid Transit & Strategic Projects provided an update on Transit
to the Committee.
The following comments were made:
• The Manager of Transportation noted that the Liberal Party announced
support of $2.1 billion (their share of the $2.1 billion) towards the project in
Surrey as well as commitments for broader transit funding. Further
announcements will be made.
• At the end of 2014, TransLink and the City of Surrey met and looked at the
design of the 27 km of Light Rail Transit (LRT). The L-line which runs from
104 Avenue to City Centre and City Centre to Newton is approximately
10 km and the Fraser Highway segment is 17 km. In total, the 27 km of LRT
will run at grade, on the ground, in the middle of the road with stops at
intersections.
• The design work has progressed and the first contract is complete. Staff
has been busy reviewing what has been produced and reviewing the
property acquisition costs at critical places along Fraser Highway. There
will be a significant take, largely contributed by the significant land take in
the Langley side. From the casino going westward to 200 Street, there are a
lot of properties that will need to be acquired. The City has maintained
that they want to avoid total take or buying out entire properties with
building structures and businesses. The goal is to try and take minimal
land.
• TransLink has provided funding to continue the design work until March of
2016 which enables the City and TransLink to produce a business plan that
is a requirement of Public, Private, Partnership (P3) Canada.

And then nothing. Surrey has hyped up every little action towards this LRT plan, but absolutely nothing has been committed yet.

[swimmer_spe]

I find it funny that the people of GVA and Toronto are having the same arguments.

Surrey wants LRT and will likely get it.

Scarborough wants 3 Stop Subway, but people argue that LRT would be better. In the end, the subway is planned to be extended and only one stop.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Surrey has hyped up every little action towards this LRT plan, but absolutely nothing has been committed yet.

Port Moody and Poco are some pretty good examples of having gone ahead with transit-oriented development based on just the promise of Skytrain, before there was even funding comitted.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Port Moody and Poco are some pretty good examples of having gone ahead with transit-oriented development based on just the promise of Skytrain, before there was even funding comitted.

I think you mean Coquitlam. Port Coquitlam doesn't have any real hints of SkyTrain coming in the near future (and no, the spur at Coquitlam Central doesn't really count). Coquitlam's been building up for some time now, and Port Coquitlam hasn't really.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

I think you mean Coquitlam. Port Coquitlam doesn't have any real hints of SkyTrain coming in the near future (and no, the spur at Coquitlam Central doesn't really count). Coquitlam's been building up for some time now, and Port Coquitlam hasn't really.

Yep, you're right. I have never gotten those areas straight in my mind despite having lived in Vancouver pretty much all my life. It's kind of like North Vancouver City vs. District for me.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I think the days of ripping up urban rail is coming to an end in North America. The public has wised up and would stop it. Even the E&N likely will be refurbished.

They did a pretty good job of ripping up Arbutus.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

They did a pretty good job of ripping up Arbutus.

Not to mention the CP spur in Richmond and building over parts of the ROW.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

They did a pretty good job of ripping up Arbutus.

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Not to mention the CP spur in Richmond and building over parts of the ROW.

Did either of these have passenger service within the last 50 years?

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Did either of these have passenger service within the last 50 years?

Yeah I doubt you see any line that was serving the community get ripped up without a big fight.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I find it funny that the people of GVA and Toronto are having the same arguments.

Surrey wants LRT and will likely get it.

Scarborough wants 3 Stop Subway, but people argue that LRT would be better. In the end, the subway is planned to be extended and only one stop.

3-stop subway has been dropped.

Now its a $3.5 Billion single station extension from Kennedy to Scarborough Town Centre. Including a new 30 pad bus loop at STC.

Which leaves barely nothing to pay for the planned Eglinton East LRT extension.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

3-stop subway has been dropped.

Now its a $3.5 Billion single station extension from Kennedy to Scarborough Town Centre. Including a new 30 pad bus loop at STC.

Which leaves barely nothing to pay for the planned Eglinton East LRT extension.

I think you misread his statement, it clearly says that the new plan is a one stop extension haha

In the end this is just a great example of why I'm not so anti LRT, this doesn't really translate well to Skytrain however as we can see in this example I think it's pretty clear that their are situations where LRT actually probably makes more sense than heavy rail.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

In the end this is just a great example of why I'm not so anti LRT, this doesn't really translate well to Skytrain however as we can see in this example I think it's pretty clear that their are situations where LRT actually probably makes more sense than heavy rail.

Of course. The argument here is that this isn't one of those situations, and that waiting a few more years for medium rail would work better.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Of course. The argument here is that this isn't one of those situations, and that waiting a few more years for medium rail would work better.

... so, once Skytrain is built to UBC, Surrey will need Skytrain?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

... so, once Skytrain is built to UBC, Surrey will need Skytrain?

Who knows? It sure beats building LRT, then later ripping up the LRT and building SkyTrain.