Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[swimmer_spe]

I cannot see a major city in Canada that needs it besides Toronto. Even then, building another line to alleviate traffic on Line 1 is happening.

Reality is, if there is that much traffic on one corridor, building a second line near it might be a way to add ridership and keep the pph down low enough that it is not continually running at crush loads.

[Bdawe]

I would also like to note that the the Skytrain, or most modern rapid transit lines, doesn't so much lack express as it lacks local service. Manhattan expresses have lower average speeds than the skytrain, and local stops can be quite close together. In essence, it's not that the skytrain lacks express service - it's that its only an express service.

If we really were to pursue such a scheme, I would suspect that the most useful set up would actually be to have more local parallel tracks rather than more express, with stops every 400 m or so replacing the 9 (one of the most used routes in the region, mind you) and 99-spaced stops at arterials where transfers are made to perpendicular bus services every 800-1200 m. Of course, this suffers from the same problem a the express tracks idea that it's all just so much more expensive, only more so.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

If we really were to pursue such a scheme, I would suspect that the most useful set up would actually be to have more local parallel tracks rather than more express, with stops every 400 m or so replacing the 9 (one of the most used routes in the region, mind you) and 99-spaced stops at arterials where transfers are made to perpendicular bus services every 800-1200 m. Of course, this suffers from the same problem a the express tracks idea that it's all just so much more expensive, only more so.

That's the problem - build that, and we basically spend several more billion on an underground trolley bus. The 9's sufficient for local service.

[Alex Mackinnon]

The station hopper idea doesn't work especially well for frequent subways. It's more of a heavy rail thing.

Having the trains have to pull off to wait for an express to go by is very hard when the trains are super close together. It's like the difference between an emergency vehicle driving with it's lights and sirens on versus cars overtaking on a rural highway. The denser traffic would basically come to a halt to allow the express train through, which would cost us in overall capacity.

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Reecemartin]

[Deleted]

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

How long do we expect Broadway construction to take? 4 years?

Depends if it's bored (most likely) or cut and cover (politically unlikely). 4 years does seem like a reasonable guess from first shovels in ground to open day.

[urbancanadian]

Also keep in mind that most of the stops on the Broadway extension would be "express stops" anyways - certainly for the portion up to Arbutus. In other words, they would all be stations that are busy/important enough for express and local trains.

Let's pretend they went with an express/local setup from VCC-Clark all the way to UBC:

Great Northern Way -- Local
Mount Pleasant (Main/Kingsway) -- Express/Local
City Hall -- Express/Local (transfer station)
VGH-Oak -- Express/Local
South Granville -- Express/Local
Arbutus -- Express/Local (future transfer station)

Macdonald -- Local
Alma -- Local
West Point Grey -- Local
UBC -- Express/Local

Basically the portion they are building now (VCC-Clark to Arbutus) would be all express/local except for the first station. The other stations would likely be far too busy for local-only trains.

The only place that could potentially make any sense would be the phase 2 section from Arbutus to UBC, but the time savings (three stops saved) are way too small for the amount of money it would cost.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

How long do we expect Broadway construction to take? 4 years?

It could be as quick as 4 years from the "shovels in the ground" photo-op to "opening day ribbon cutting photo op", but with all the incomplete pre-construction engineering still needing to be done I'm not expecting to ride under Broadway until the mid 2020's at the earliest.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Funding or no funding, one would think there'd be room in the budget to conduct all the pre-construction planning. Might as well get that out of the way while we wait for the province and feds to get their act together, right?

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Funding or no funding, one would think there'd be room in the budget to conduct all the pre-construction planning. Might as well get that out of the way while we wait for the province and feds to get their act together, right?

I believe that is mostly complete already. Remember when they were doing all the soil testing along Broadway and side streets.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

I believe that is mostly complete already. Remember when they were doing all the soil testing along Broadway and side streets.

That was to get to the 80% engineering complete stage of the project.

This is primarily needed to sharpen the pencils on the cost estimates.

Core samples along the length of the route greatly help to discover what is underground that the TBM will have to dig through - and how expensive that will be.

I've heard the "80% engineering report" is done and being reviewed by everyone involved in the Broadway extension planning

[Hooknose]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

That was to get to the 80% engineering complete stage of the project.

This is primarily needed to sharpen the pencils on the cost estimates.

Core samples along the length of the route greatly help to discover what is underground that the TBM will have to dig through - and how expensive that will be.

I've heard the "80% engineering report" is done and being reviewed by everyone involved in the Broadway extension planning

A Question. (or two)
Your post, jsbertram, is the first to put an actual number next to any accomplishment on the Broadway Line. I went to the open houses put on by Translink in early February and I got a well polished line of baffle gab about politics, engineering and other drivel.
They did not tell me a thing but pushed me around from representative to representative, each supposedly able to tell me an answer.
So .. any inside scoop on when the pencil sharpening will be finished? Any first indications as to we actually hear some real estimates?
Just as important, any gossip on compromises that the pencil sharpeners are using to keep costs down - you know - like the brain dead 40 meter stations on the Canada Line.

[officedweller]

From the Surry LRT thread:

Originally Posted by xd_1771

http://www.budget.gc.ca/2017/docs/plan/chap-02-en.html#Toc477707383

Your image isn't showing - I gather it was this:

[idunno]

Woo hoo! Go JT Go!

Now it's up to the province!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

A Question. (or two)
Your post, jsbertram, is the first to put an actual number next to any accomplishment on the Broadway Line. I went to the open houses put on by Translink in early February and I got a well polished line of baffle gab about politics, engineering and other drivel.
They did not tell me a thing but pushed me around from representative to representative, each supposedly able to tell me an answer.
So .. any inside scoop on when the pencil sharpening will be finished? Any first indications as to we actually hear some real estimates?
Just as important, any gossip on compromises that the pencil sharpeners are using to keep costs down - you know - like the brain dead 40 meter stations on the Canada Line.

I can't say anything that isn't already public.

I can say that the new stations will have (at minimum) 80 M platforms, because that is what is needed to hold a Mk I 6 car train, and this is an extension of the Millennium Line. With the high cost of using cut & cover to dig up the streets to renovate and extend the underground stations in order to extend the platforms 20 M, it would in the long run be cheaper to build the 100 M platforms as part of the initial construction and cover up the extra 20M until longer trains are needed - just like Canada Line has done. Of course, the rest of the older stations will also need their platforms extended to 100 M before the longer trains can be running.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by idunno

Woo hoo! Go JT Go!

Now it's up to the province!

Good luck with that.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I.... and cover up the extra 20M until longer trains are needed - just like Canada Line has done. Of course, the rest of the older stations will also need their platforms extended to 100 M before the longer trains can be running.

Why cover the other 20m? why not leave it open with a guard rail over the unused track and have expanded crowd capacity and flow at platform level?

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Why cover the other 20m? why not leave it open with a guard rail over the unused track and have expanded crowd capacity and flow at platform level?

I think it would be a raw, unfinished concrete ledge without lighting, PA, safety systems, etc. until time to expand.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Why cover the other 20m? why not leave it open with a guard rail over the unused track and have expanded crowd capacity and flow at platform level?

Hmmm. Many Japanese subway systems are built like this, with a portion of the platform fully built but closed for public access/left unlit, though not necessarily walled off. Some lines in Osaka come to mind.