Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[BretttheRiderFan]

Originally Posted by Nathan

This has been discussed numerous times.... It's possible that Stoon may more readily shift from the Blades to an AHL farm team, but it's less likely that Regina would shift from the Pats to some farm team... The Pats as of next year will have 100 years of history and that would be a shame to lose.

I would think the more likely choices for the two would be Medicine Hat or Lethbridge for Calgary and Red Deer for Edmonton. Keeps it in Alberta with possible closer attachments, and those WHL cities have a bit less history.

Medicine Hat in particular has a very strong attachment to the WHL Tigers, but I'd also think all these markets (particularly MH) are too small for AHL.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Nathan

This has been discussed numerous times.... It's possible that Stoon may more readily shift from the Blades to an AHL farm team, but it's less likely that Regina would shift from the Pats to some farm team... The Pats as of next year will have 100 years of history and that would be a shame to lose.

I would think the more likely choices for the two would be Medicine Hat or Lethbridge for Calgary and Red Deer for Edmonton. Keeps it in Alberta with possible closer attachments, and those WHL cities have a bit less history.

It comes up every once and awhile, but as far as I know it has never been seriously considered by the teams, which is what I'm confused about. I'd have to believe the placement of Calgary and Edmonton's farm teams is because of the WHL's control of nearly any city of note in the Prairies. The NHL doesn't want to disrupt one of it's most important feeder leagues and potentially causing the end of the Blades or Pats would do that (though good riddance to the Blades if it did).

Originally Posted by cjones2451

Its also about travel for those teams in the AHL. They would be very isolated. There was an AHL team in Abbotsford, BC for the Flames and it was a disaster (granted Canucks fans didn't want too see Flames prospects)

I don't know if I believe that is a major factor. Winnipeg wanted to put their farm team in Thunder Bay after all. And it wouldn't exactly be the same as a Flames team in Abbotsford since Saskatoon is largely Oilers/Flames territory. Having a team to go along with the Moose in the Prairies I think would probably be better for the league than having teams just fly to face the Moose.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

I don't know if I believe that is a major factor. Winnipeg wanted to put their farm team in Thunder Bay after all. And it wouldn't exactly be the same as a Flames team in Abbotsford since Saskatoon is largely Oilers/Flames territory. Having a team to go along with the Moose in the Prairies I think would probably be better for the league than having teams just fly to face the Moose.

It's pretty clear that the NHL/AHL are reluctant to horn in on WHL cities with AHL teams. If the Blades ever left Saskatoon, then I'm sure an AHL team would swoop in pretty quickly, but not before then.

Winnipeg and Thunder Bay are both cities without WHL/OHL franchises which is presumably why they've been linked to the AHL in recent years. In the case of Winnipeg, the Manitoba Moose seem to be finding their place in the local sports scene... they draw quite well and are reasonably well supported even in spite of the fact that they're pretty much a league punching bag. Considering how well it has worked out so far, I'd expect TNSE to keep the Moose around for some time yet.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's pretty clear that the NHL/AHL are reluctant to horn in on WHL cities with AHL teams. If the Blades ever left Saskatoon, then I'm sure an AHL team would swoop in pretty quickly, but not before then.

It's important to note that the WHL teams in Edmonton and Calgary are owned by the respective entertainment groups who own the NHL teams in each city. Despite what the financial statements might say, the junior teams make a very nice profit for those entertainment groups.

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

It's important to note that the WHL teams in Edmonton and Calgary are owned by the respective entertainment groups who own the NHL teams in each city. Despite what the financial statements might say, the junior teams make a very nice profit for those entertainment groups.

Pretty sure the Hitmen are the most profitable team in the WHL are they not?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Pretty sure the Hitmen are the most profitable team in the WHL are they not?

They probably are but it's hard to prove. In an attempt to get at least minimum wage paid to the players labor lawyers are apparently discovering that all of these teams are losing about the same amount of money which they said makes no sense given that some teams have much larger revenue streams than others. The BC and SK governments have protected the teams from having to pay minimum wage as has WA state but AB has no plans to do so. Another thing that is really sketchy is that several WHL owners over the last few years have donated over $300K to the BC Liberal Party.

For BC-based teams it would cost about $228K/year to pay that province's $10.85 minimum wage (late 2016) to a 24-player roster assuming a 35-hour work week over 25 weeks. The teams in BC claim they probably wouldn't be viable if they had to pay that amount. I find that really hard to believe. It probably would only take the Hitmen three or four games at most to cover such a cost. If a team truly can't afford to pay such a small amount out over an entire season they probably need new owners. What really needs to happen is for governments to stop protecting these guys and to stop indirectly benefiting off the slave labor of these young kids.

[SaskScraper]

Originally Posted by Horus

..in Winnipeg. The NHL carries much more prestige than does the AHL and despite Winnipeg's lower population than other NHL cities, the number of NHL fans has been estimated to fall more in the middle (as illustrated at fivethirtyeight.com - however dubious their methodology)

somewhat dubious methodology indeed, it's like they throw graphic together as an after thought.
Edmonton Oilers fan base is bigger than Calgary Flames with exact same % of avid fans?..maybe

Possible fan base for new NHL Canadian expansion teams:

Kingston-Eastern Ontario would be a potential NHL market even though only 2hours away from Ottawa Sens territory.. maybe

Halifax potential NHL team territory and NewBrunswick's is exactly the same number population, but Halifax apparently would garner (lets pull this one out of a hat) 3% more avid fans.. maybe

This is where things really fall apart..
Sudbury-Thunder Bay potential NHL team territory!! sure.. they are only like only 11 hours driving distance apart, to fly it you would have to transit through Maple Leafs territory in Toronto!!

Saskatoon potential NHL team territory occupies only within Saskatoon CMA city limits.. because we all know how horrible Saskatchewan people hate to back provincial teams like the Riders & the Rush lacrosse team!! (only 2 hours drive between Saskatoon & Regina)

ZERO mention of Hamilton as a potential new NHL territory even though Kingston and Sudbury are mentioned??

Originally Posted by esquire
It's pretty clear that the NHL/AHL are reluctant to horn in on WHL cities with AHL teams. If the Blades ever left Saskatoon, then I'm sure an AHL team would swoop in pretty quickly, but not before then.

ya, I have lived in this province my whole life and Saskatchewan is definitely WHL territory. Swift Current Bronco's are a popular team and I have never heard of anyone speak of AHL with any interest. I have heard a couple months ago of rumour of Sask Rush possibly interested in buying the S'toon Blades though, that would keep them in same coliseum for years to come.

http://thestarphoenix.com/sports/hockey/...ested-but-blades-say-theyre-not-for-sale

[FFX-ME]

Yea, Sudburry-Thunder Bay is ridiculous and so it the Easter Ontario one since that is Ottawa's region. Hamilton, however, is obviously included into Toronto's area.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Why isn't it the Saskatoon, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg region? There's like four million people within an 11 hour drive of Saskatoon.

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

NMS placed 18th in stadium of the year judging.

http://stadiumdb.com/competitions/stadium_of_the_year_2016

That's incredible!

[GernB]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

It comes up every once and awhile, but as far as I know it has never been seriously considered by the teams, which is what I'm confused about. I'd have to believe the placement of Calgary and Edmonton's farm teams is because of the WHL's control of nearly any city of note in the Prairies. The NHL doesn't want to disrupt one of it's most important feeder leagues and potentially causing the end of the Blades or Pats would do that (though good riddance to the Blades if it did).



I don't know if I believe that is a major factor. Winnipeg wanted to put their farm team in Thunder Bay after all. And it wouldn't exactly be the same as a Flames team in Abbotsford since Saskatoon is largely Oilers/Flames territory. Having a team to go along with the Moose in the Prairies I think would probably be better for the league than having teams just fly to face the Moose.

IIRC the Oilers had planned to relocate their AHL affiliate from Edmonton to Saskatoon after the lockout but were stymied as such a move needed the approval of the Blades which was unlikely to be forthcoming. As well, I seem to recall hearing that the Oilers guaranteed an AHL team to Fort McMurray if a suitable arena was built. I've never heard of the Flames having any interest in putting the farm team anywhere on the prairies but Saskatoon would seem a good fit if the Blades relocated. An AHL division consisting of Abbotsford (Vancouver affiliate), Saskatoon (Calgary), Fort McMurray (Edmonton), and Thunder Bay (Winnipeg) might be very attractive.

[craner]

Originally Posted by Nathan

I would think the more likely choices for the two would be Medicine Hat or Lethbridge for Calgary and Red Deer for Edmonton. Keeps it in Alberta with possible closer attachments, and those WHL cities have a bit less history.

Hey now - I claim Red Deer as Calgary territory !

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by SaskScraper

somewhat dubious methodology indeed, it's like they throw graphic together as an after thought.
Edmonton Oilers fan base is bigger than Calgary Flames with exact same % of avid fans?..maybe

Possible fan base for new NHL Canadian expansion teams:

Kingston-Eastern Ontario would be a potential NHL market even though only 2hours away from Ottawa Sens territory.. maybe

Halifax potential NHL team territory and NewBrunswick's is exactly the same number population, but Halifax apparently would garner (lets pull this one out of a hat) 3% more avid fans.. maybe

This is where things really fall apart..
Sudbury-Thunder Bay potential NHL team territory!! sure.. they are only like only 11 hours driving distance apart, to fly it you would have to transit through Maple Leafs territory in Toronto!!

Saskatoon potential NHL team territory occupies only within Saskatoon CMA city limits.. because we all know how horrible Saskatchewan people hate to back provincial teams like the Riders & the Rush lacrosse team!! (only 2 hours drive between Saskatoon & Regina)

ZERO mention of Hamilton as a potential new NHL territory even though Kingston and Sudbury are mentioned??



ya, I have lived in this province my whole life and Saskatchewan is definitely WHL territory. Swift Current Bronco's are a popular team and I have never heard of anyone speak of AHL with any interest. I have heard a couple months ago of rumour of Sask Rush possibly interested in buying the S'toon Blades though, that would keep them in same coliseum for years to come.

http://thestarphoenix.com/sports/hockey/...ested-but-blades-say-theyre-not-for-sale

No clue where they got their "possible markets for expansion", not just for distance of the so called "markets", but possible struggles as seen in Ottawa where we continue to have trouble winning over Leafs and Habs fans, even after 25 years. How the hell could Kingston support an NHL franchise.

Only possible expansion markets in Canada are, obviously, Québec City and Hamilton (or some other place in the GTA for the frustrated Leaf fans looking for a better alternative). Possibly Halifax and Saskatchewan (Saskatoon since Regina has the Provincial CFL team).

Thanks Horus for the AHL stats.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Only possible expansion markets in Canada are, obviously, Québec City and Hamilton (or some other place in the GTA for the frustrated Leaf fans looking for a better alternative). Possibly Halifax and Saskatchewan (Saskatoon since Regina has the Provincial CFL team).

It's interesting that Halifax and Saskatoon don't often come up as relocation sites given that both of them would exceed several existing NHL teams in terms of the number of actual hockey fans within their market.

[FFX-ME]

I don't think either of them could fill a 20,000 seat arena 41 times a year.

In the chart, they basically added all of the maritimes as the fan base for Halifax. People won't drive 5 hours to see a game on a weeknight.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

I don't think either of them could fill a 20,000 seat arena 41 times a year.

Neither could a lot of NHL teams, though.

[FFX-ME]

My point was that large cities like Phoenix may not have a lot of avid fans but they do have a large population they CAN call upon. A lot of those people may be interested in an occasional game if it's convenient but those people wouldn't exist in Saskatoon. Comparing it to the success of CFL is absurd since there are many more NHL games in a season.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

In the chart, they basically added all of the maritimes as the fan base for Halifax. People won't drive 5 hours to see a game on a weeknight.

In the chart that shows 668,000 for Halifax or some other chart? That is about how many people would live within an hour of an arena in Halifax. There are 1.8 million people in the Maritimes.

One difference between a smaller market full of fans and a big market with a low concentration of fans is that it's going to be easier to increase the size of the bigger market. You can go from 5% to 10% in a huge market and develop a large fan base. The smaller markets will hit diminishing returns and even if 100% of people follow the sport the total number won't be huge.

With all of that in mind, it's hard to see how Halifax would be inconceivable in a world where Winnipeg has an NHL team. It would be hard to imagine if the NHL cities all had millions of people.

[Berklon]

^ It's not just about the fanbase, a large amount of corporate support is just as crucial to an NHL franchises financial success - maybe even moreso. You aren't going to get much corporate support at all from cities like Halifax (even with maritimes support), Saskatoon, Thunder Bay, etc.

And if the maritimes can't even secure a CFL team that plays only 9 home games a year after all these decades, an NHL team is impossible.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Berklon

^ It's not just about the fanbase, a large amount of corporate support is just as crucial to an NHL franchises financial success - maybe even moreso. You aren't going to get much corporate support at all from cities like Halifax (even with maritimes support), Saskatoon, Thunder Bay, etc.

And if the maritimes can't even secure a CFL team that plays only 9 home games a year after all these decades, an NHL team is impossible.

The stadium is basically the only thing holding an Atlantic franchise back in the CFL. I feel like if the NHL said you have a team if you want (the way the CFL has intimated), Halifax/Nova Scotia would jump at the opportunity and fund it.