Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by PPAR

If the green line is underground on 12th, the plan is to cross under the red line east of Macleod. That implies at least 5 more blocks underground from the corner of 2nd and 12th. Given that, I suspect the line could in fact be quite deep, and pass under any foundations as required. Also, as the tunnel looks to be several kilometres long, and go under the river, it is likely that a boring machine will end up being the most cost effective option. I would not worry about having to make a sharp corner.

If you want to read an example of tunnelling underground through density, look up the crossrail project in London, amazing things done there.

This is a good point. Thanks I will check out crossrail, it's quite the project

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by PPAR

If the green line is underground on 12th, the plan is to cross under the red line east of Macleod. That implies at least 5 more blocks underground from the corner of 2nd and 12th. Given that, I suspect the line could in fact be quite deep, and pass under any foundations as required. Also, as the tunnel looks to be several kilometres long, and go under the river, it is likely that a boring machine will end up being the most cost effective option. I would not worry about having to make a sharp corner.

If you want to read an example of tunnelling underground through density, look up the crossrail project in London, amazing things done there.

That is true actually, it should be deep enough. All the more reason to build underground, I just can't see surface working unless they buy that property, which will nullify a lot of the cost benefit I would have thought.

Being a former UK resident I'm also fascinated by Crossrail - remember that cost £15 billion though! HS2 will be even more impressive, with huge lengths of high speed tunnels, a truly gargantuan project.

[mytwocents]

Originally Posted by MasterG

This is a good point. Thanks I will check out crossrail, it's quite the project

Second avenue subway in New York is also pretty amazing considering it's going through dense Manhattan. I can't remember the exact number but a show I watched on it said they bored something like 3m a day because of the hard rock. It wasn't a large number I can remember that.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by craner

The benefit of underground isn't the underground station but in the elimination of conflicts with surface transportation

Fair. I think this is a very good reason to have it on 10th and not have it go to 12th and interfere with more roads along the way.

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by craner

I would be in favour of this option given the projections supporting Beltline users and it could eliminate the problem of the tight south to east / west to north turn that milomilo has pointed out.

Exactly. The old funeral home/church on the NE corner of 2 St and 17 Ave would be pretty easy to appropriate and knock down, too.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Fair. I think this is a very good reason to have it on 10th and not have it go to 12th and interfere with more roads along the way.

Finally, someone that agrees with me! ...that's all I ever look for on this forum. I don't want my views to be challenged


In all seriousness, I still think 10th is the better choice. Like a clock that is broken, you are right once a day!

[outoftheice]

Reading through the report that will go to T&T on Wednesday, Administration is recommending that Council approve the 12th Ave tunnel option up to Macleod Trail. Assuming that this recommendation is adopted (and my guess is that it will be) the only thing left to be determined over the next few months is where exactly the tunnel portal and station are located east of Macleod Trail and whether or not the line swings north around the bus barns or cuts straight through Ramsay. My vote is for the tunnel portal to be just east of 4th St SE and to have the line swing north around the bus barns.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Reading through the report that will go to T&T on Wednesday, Administration is recommending that Council approve the 12th Ave tunnel option up to Macleod Trail. Assuming that this recommendation is adopted (and my guess is that it will be) the only thing left to be determined over the next few months is where exactly the tunnel portal and station are located east of Macleod Trail and whether or not the line swings north around the bus barns or cuts straight through Ramsay. My vote is for the tunnel portal to be just east of 4th St SE and to have the line swing north around the bus barns.

I really hope they take the right-of-way from 12th Ave itself for the tunnel portal, rather than an adjacent property. The road allotment is comically wide. I would hate to see any part of the Green Line replicate the main-street killing trench design of 17th Ave SW between Westbrook and Sirocco Station. That street will never have a chance to develop into anything else other than a throughfare as a result.

Same problem exists with soundwall development, which I hope is minimized thorughout the Green Line. The infamous 16th Avenue road widening project from a decade ago is an example of how not to do many things in a transportation project, the addition of the Rosedale Wall is among the worst decisions.

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

Exactly. The old funeral home/church on the NE corner of 2 St and 17 Ave would be pretty easy to appropriate and knock down, too.

Wasn't that one on fire just a couple weeks ago too? Maybe damaged enough it has to be torn down?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Wasn't that one on fire just a couple weeks ago too? Maybe damaged enough it has to be torn down?

Interesting. Did they ever say what the cause of the fire was?

[Rollerstud98]

I never looked into it much but I heard it was the garage part that was on fire. Haven't been down that way for quite a while now so can't say whether there was a lot of damage or not.

[milomilo]

Much as I hate twitter, there are some interesting titbits released today:

https://twitter.com/LRTontheGreen

Recommendation to #yyccc is to approve the #greenlineyyc tunnel option from Macleod Trail west & continue discussion about east #beltline

Cost difference between a #greenlineyyc surface option through east #beltline & tunneling under Elbow River is $300 million.

Advocacy by @CalgaryMLC to put the second station in east #beltline underground to maximize investment and development in the area.

So they are considering tunneling even further east? Looks like sense will prevail and this will be underground throughout most or all of the core, but when all is said and done this is going to be one hell of an expensive project. Makes me wonder if different decisions would have been made if they had known the scale it would grow to. Using low floor LRTs is pretty much pointless now as there will be very little of the route where this would be an advantage. In fact the only place where low floor would be beneficial (Centre Street north, surface section) is the one remaining major issue I have with this project. But hey, they're modern and Portland has them.

[ggopher]

They are now going to investigate the possibility of moving the bus barns. Sounds like an interesting idea but would be really expensive.

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Much as I hate twitter, there are some interesting titbits released today:

https://twitter.com/LRTontheGreen









So they are considering tunneling even further east? Looks like sense will prevail and this will be underground throughout most or all of the core, but when all is said and done this is going to be one hell of an expensive project. Makes me wonder if different decisions would have been made if they had known the scale it would grow to. Using low floor LRTs is pretty much pointless now as there will be very little of the route where this would be an advantage. In fact the only place where low floor would be beneficial (Centre Street north, surface section) is the one remaining major issue I have with this project. But hey, they're modern and Portland has them.

Is that decision set in stone? Would it be cheaper to go with regular trains instead?

[CalgaryAlex]

I have to say... from the way the city is communicating these alignment changes, it really sounds like they are flying by the seat of their pants. I really hope the Beltline-to-Ramsay alignment doesn't turn into a complete disaster.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

Is that decision set in stone? Would it be cheaper to go with regular trains instead?

Seems it was decided a long time ago when the SELRT was not even envisioned as linked to the NCLRT, I think. I'm not completely against using them but it could affect how the line could be utilised in the future. I don't think there's any major difference in cost with low floor vs high floor, the major disadvantage of low floor is the reduced size of the interiors - look at the new Confederation Line trains to see how cramped they look compared to ours.

On the other hand though, I foresee one day LRT running down 17th and linking up with the Green Line at Ramsay. Low floor would be great for that.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Seems it was decided a long time ago when the SELRT was not even envisioned as linked to the NCLRT, I think. I'm not completely against using them but it could affect how the line could be utilised in the future. I don't think there's any major difference in cost with low floor vs high floor, the major disadvantage of low floor is the reduced size of the interiors - look at the new Confederation Line trains to see how cramped they look compared to ours.

On the other hand though, I foresee one day LRT running down 17th and linking up with the Green Line at Ramsay. Low floor would be great for that.

So, higher cost trains (at list prices), lower cost stations when they are community scale (lower platforms, shorter approach ramps). However, when you are ordering lots of trains, the diseconomies of scale disappear and it likely makes little to no difference - internal concern at early stages of only being able to use Siemens and basically having more of our system locked in with a unique to us and Edmonton design.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

Is that decision set in stone? Would it be cheaper to go with regular trains instead?

The irony with this is that the folks who were pushing a low floor design for street level engagement are the ones who subsequently have been pushing for the higher expense underground options that defeat the value of going with the higher cost low floor option!

Irony in all this is that I have been quite swayed over recent times by folks talking about street level, and above street level engagement. My option choices within the core were always #1 above grade (for engagement with existing extensive +30 network), and outside of the core proper, street level, for engagement / enhancement of street level.

[milomilo]

Another interesting image - this is the first time to my knowledge that it has been shown that the Green Line might have a future spur to the airport. Which ties in nicely with the plans recently released for airport trail.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by suburbia

The irony with this is that the folks who were pushing a low floor design for street level engagement are the ones who subsequently have been pushing for the higher expense underground options that debate the value of going with the higher cost low floor option!

They are?