Calgary Public Transit II

[mytwocents]

Originally Posted by Canadian74

What happened to the smart card system?

It's amazing this city doesn't have a smart card for transit when pretty much every other city big and small in the world has had this for years and in some cases decades

I am also interested in this, I thought I read somewhere they would ditch it in favour of pay by phone apple wallet type thing. Maybe somebody can correct me.

[para transit fellow]

my understanding is that Calgary wants the card to be part of a larger picture. One Card covering the many fare plans (seniors, students, low-income, etc)

Then for stage two, they would like the same card to cover the work the deliver of services city wide ( pools, golf, skatining, etc) under similar fee structures

One card for the delivery of services... and once you get that set up you can enhance the program with alternative "cards" (NFC, tap and pay, etc)

the problem with the current state of tech is that criteria for prompt updating of the users account isn't working out. Most of the existing smart card systems have a time lag for updates or require topping up your card at specific locals.

My take:
Since Calgary wasn't an early adopter of the smart card, we are in a gray zone. We could embrace the current tech which is discovering short-comings such as demands of real-time account updates or we can go bleeding edge and be the first to understake a new untested system

...or... we can drag our feet and let someone else go first

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

my understanding is that Calgary wants the card to be part of a larger picture. One Card covering the many fare plans (seniors, students, low-income, etc)

Then for stage two, they would like the same card to cover the work the deliver of services city wide ( pools, golf, skatining, etc) under similar fee structures

One card for the delivery of services... and once you get that set up you can enhance the program with alternative "cards" (NFC, tap and pay, etc)

the problem with the current state of tech is that criteria for prompt updating of the users account isn't working out. Most of the existing smart card systems have a time lag for updates or require topping up your card at specific locals.

My take:
Since Calgary wasn't an early adopter of the smart card, we are in a gray zone. We could embrace the current tech which is discovering short-comings such as demands of real-time account updates or we can go bleeding edge and be the first to understake a new untested system

...or... we can drag our feet and let someone else go first

This seems bizarre to me. I can order online and have my purchase approved in seconds, what is the challenge to having a users account updated in seconds?

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

This seems bizarre to me. I can order online and have my purchase approved in seconds, what is the challenge to having a users account updated in seconds?

Yeah I don't really get it. Can't they have an online database of user accounts and balances while the card itself, when scanned, just indicates that that account has been used? Can't terminals use cell towers to transmit the data?

I've read a lot of explanations on here regarding a smartcard's complexity, but this still seems like something a 15 year old app developer could put together in an hour.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

This seems bizarre to me. I can order online and have my purchase approved in seconds, what is the challenge to having a users account updated in seconds?

A couple of factors:

1. A card reader on a bus is not "online" in the same way that the web server is processing the order. The cellphone network is considerably flakier.
2. "Approved in seconds" -- I suggest that anything less than sub-second performance is unacceptable. I don't know what CT's criteria is, but "boarding process must not be slower than today" ought to be in there somewhere.

I'm still slightly baffled by the problems too, but nothing is ever as easy as it seems

As others have pointed out, a stored-value card is easy -- all validation is local, no network is needed, no credit card authorization is ever necessary at time of boarding. It is significantly easier to make that rock-solid.

[MalcolmTucker]

Chicago had the sub second requirement in their rfp, which master or visa won, forget which. They have not been able to meet the standard. Because despite what conventional wisdom tells us this problem is much harder than our gut says.

[ggopher]

The city is presenting the following report at the Transportation and Transit Committee on 15 March 2017. It discusses the options for upgrading the payment system.

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/agdocs.aspx?doctype=agenda&itemid=48467

The current Ticket Vending Machines need to be replaced due to obsolescence. The estimated cost of this is $15 million.

In addition they are recommending the implementation of a mobile smartphone based payment system. The estimated cost of this is $5 million. This can be quickly implemented in 1-2 years.

The ultimate goal of upgrading to an Account Based Electronic Fare Collection system is estimated to cost $55-75 million and take 4 years. Due to the rapid change of technology and high costs, this option is deemed too risky and is not recommended.

I like the idea of just using a smartphone based system.

Although the Park Plus payment app is not the greatest example of design. Hopefully they can come up with something better.

[holhm22]

Originally Posted by ggopher

The city is presenting the following report at the Transportation and Transit Committee on 15 March 2017. It discusses the options for upgrading the payment system.

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/agdocs.aspx?doctype=agenda&itemid=48467



I like the idea of just using a smartphone based system.

Although the Park Plus payment app is not the greatest example of design. Hopefully they can come up with something better.

Wondering if they will be able to do it with tap terminals and the nfc in phones myself

[Cage]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Chicago had the sub second requirement in their rfp, which master or visa won, forget which. They have not been able to meet the standard. Because despite what conventional wisdom tells us this problem is much harder than our gut says.

Part of the problem for Calgary transit is they are approaching the system implementation wrong. I have Been a small part of over dozen large it system implementations and a large part of half dozen tier 1 or 2 ERP selection projects. One criteria is the following maxim. "You don't change SAP, SAP changes you". So pick a system you like and adjust your fare system accordingly.

The Calgary Transit EFC implementation is increasing looking like WestJet's foray into custom built passenger sales and service systems. WS started their adventure into replacing navigator open skies back in 2003 timeframe. They selected Sabre but found the number of adjustments to their processes too cumbersome. WS abandoned Sabre in 2004 and went with aiRES, custom built new technology solution. They spent 40 million dollars before abandoning the project. Third system was back to Sabre for another attempt. Again WS listened to their employees too much and over spent by couple million on configuration changes that were not required. Eventually the overspend caused the ouster of the CEO (Sean Duffy).

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by holhm22

Wondering if they will be able to do it with tap terminals and the nfc in phones myself

The documents describe nothing of that sort. (Read them! Especially "Attach 1 - Understanding the Mobile Ticketing Solution Experience")

Payment is within the app and you display the app as proof of payment as needed to bus drivers/peace officers. The idea being that you pre-purchase the ticket and tap "start ticket" when the bus is approaching or enter the train station (or whenever you want, I suppose, if you have enough time on your trip).

IMO, this is actually very positive news, because it means that:
- it is open to a wider range of smartphone users (plenty of phones out there without NFC)
- ought to be much faster than a tap-to-purchase at boarding time. (This is my idea of a nightmare, bus trips being horribly delayed while people fumble with their phones trying to purchase at boarding time.)

[Canadian74]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

The documents describe nothing of that sort. (Read them! Especially "Attach 1 - Understanding the Mobile Ticketing Solution Experience")

Payment is within the app and you display the app as proof of payment as needed to bus drivers/peace officers. The idea being that you pre-purchase the ticket and tap "start ticket" when the bus is approaching or enter the train station (or whenever you want, I suppose, if you have enough time on your trip).

IMO, this is actually very positive news, because it means that:
- it is open to a wider range of smartphone users (plenty of phones out there without NFC)
- ought to be much faster than a tap-to-purchase at boarding time. (This is my idea of a nightmare, bus trips being horribly delayed while people fumble with their phones trying to purchase at boarding time.)

How will this work with people who have turned data off or have used up their data

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Canadian74

How will this work with people who have turned data off or have used up their data

From the fine materials:

Internet Connection Required:

• Download app
• Create account on app
• Purchase product (e.g. ticket, day pass, monthly pass)

Internet Connection Not Required

• Activate a ticket at a Transit stop
• Visual Validation – show the activated ticket on the smartphone to the bus driver, Peace Officer

So it seems you can purchase tickets wherever you have wifi. So as long as you have some foresight, cellphone data never required.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

Payment is within the app and you display the app as proof of payment as needed to bus drivers/peace officers. The idea being that you pre-purchase the ticket and tap "start ticket" when the bus is approaching or enter the train station (or whenever you want, I suppose, if you have enough time on your trip).

Good gawd is this ever a bad idea. So to avoid payment all together I should put my phone into airplane mode. Once on the train I look at the doors or wait for the Peace officers to announce "tickets please". I then activate my ticket only when needed. Considering I see the Peace Officers once every 2-4 months, this would significantly reduce my cost to ride the LRT.

The Calgary Transit folks need to get out of the train and bus thinking and borrow a few strategies from their airplane transportation cousins. All major North American airlines have dealt with the problems addressed in the Calgary Transit report.

Some of things that AC learned in their recent refresh and upgrade to their mobile app.
(1) Data and location services can work to your advantage. For instance AC knows when I am in the MLL or in the security line or in the boarding lounge. My wallet boarding pass pickles itself once the airplane has departed, the QR code gets greyed out.
(2) AC has realized to ignore the small segment of the market the wants cellular phone without a data plan is also the market segment least likely to use mobile app solutions.
(3) There will always be a market for traditional processes, so organizations will have to realize that dual payment streams (new and old) will have to operate simultaneously. No new method will completely replace the legacy approach.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

This seems bizarre to me. I can order online and have my purchase approved in seconds, what is the challenge to having a users account updated in seconds?

You described the purchaser side . How does the card reader in the bus know your account is paid up in similar amount of time?

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by Cage

Good gawd is this ever a bad idea. So to avoid payment all together I should put my phone into airplane mode. Once on the train I look at the doors or wait for the Peace officers to announce "tickets please". I then activate my ticket only when needed. Considering I see the Peace Officers once every 2-4 months, this would significantly reduce my cost to ride the LRT.

The Calgary Transit folks need to get out of the train and bus thinking and borrow a few strategies from their airplane transportation cousins. All major North American airlines have dealt with the problems addressed in the Calgary Transit report.

Some of things that AC learned in their recent refresh and upgrade to their mobile app.
(1) Data and location services can work to your advantage. For instance AC knows when I am in the MLL or in the security line or in the boarding lounge. My wallet boarding pass pickles itself once the airplane has departed, the QR code gets greyed out.
(2) AC has realized to ignore the small segment of the market the wants cellular phone without a data plan is also the market segment least likely to use mobile app solutions.
(3) There will always be a market for traditional processes, so organizations will have to realize that dual payment streams (new and old) will have to operate simultaneously. No new method will completely replace the legacy approach.

Protip: airplane mode not required to accomplish your scam

Agreed, that does seem like a big hole. Enforcement works "well enough" now because you can't easily dodge the peace officers standing between you are the ticket vending machines. Not so with the phone.

I agree CT shouldn't fuss over people without data plans. However, not relying on customers' individual data connections at proof-of-fare time is a bonus in my books. Half of the days I'm sitting in the bus to leave the train station, my phone's wifi gets badly captured by the just-barely-close enough retailers, but works so badly I have to turn off wifi just to use LTE. Anything causing people to fumble with their phones is a serious turn-off for me as a passenger as it will slow bus operations. Waiting for and watching people fumble for a paper monthly pass is annoying enough.

[Canadian74]

CT is trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist..... just give us a regular smart card that everyone else on the earth has been using for decades

[Doug]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

my understanding is that Calgary wants the card to be part of a larger picture. One Card covering the many fare plans (seniors, students, low-income, etc)

Then for stage two, they would like the same card to cover the work the deliver of services city wide ( pools, golf, skatining, etc) under similar fee structures

One card for the delivery of services... and once you get that set up you can enhance the program with alternative "cards" (NFC, tap and pay, etc)

the problem with the current state of tech is that criteria for prompt updating of the users account isn't working out. Most of the existing smart card systems have a time lag for updates or require topping up your card at specific locals.

My take:
Since Calgary wasn't an early adopter of the smart card, we are in a gray zone. We could embrace the current tech which is discovering short-comings such as demands of real-time account updates or we can go bleeding edge and be the first to understake a new untested system

...or... we can drag our feet and let someone else go first

Salt Lake City has had such technology in place for a decade. The RFID card that works as a lift ticket at the Alta or Solitude ski areas (neither government owned) also works as tap on proof of payment on UTA public transit.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by CrossedTheTracks

(1) Protip: airplane mode not required to accomplish your scam

Agreed, that does seem like a big hole. Enforcement works "well enough" now because you can't easily dodge the peace officers standing between you are the ticket vending machines. Not so with the phone.

(2) Half of the days I'm sitting in the bus to leave the train station, my phone's wifi gets badly captured by the just-barely-close enough retailers, but works so badly I have to turn off wifi just to use LTE. Anything causing people to fumble with their phones is a serious turn-off for me as a passenger as it will slow bus operations. Waiting for and watching people fumble for a paper monthly pass is annoying enough.

(1) Both Air Canada and United have the ability to find an app users location at the checkin counter, or at preboard security, or in the lounge when the user is at their hubs. This is irrespective of the users location services settings. If Calgary Transit wanted, they could place a location finder device at each ctrain station that would invalidate instant purchase option. However turn on airplane mode and the location finding services does not work.

(2) United has an app feature that allows users to set whether cellular data or wifi data takes precedence. UA app users had the same problem as you describe, turn off a crappy wifi setting in order to get more timely updates through cellular data. Enough of us frequent flyers complained to UA to get the app feature coded into the latest version.

Presumably if UA and AC (who also spent north of $15 million on their apps) can get these features put into their apps, then so could Calgary Transit.

[CrossedTheTracks]

This week's Transportation and Transit Committee's meeting is full of interesting topics; in addition to the already-discussed electronic fare collection options, there is a RouteAhead update and Green Line program update.

I don't think there's any "surprises" there for people following along here, but there's a wealth of background materials available: http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=2205&doctype=AGENDA

[Socguy]

To be completely honest, I don't see what all the fuss is regarding electronic cards. The system doesn't need 'em. Instead of wasting money failing to implement an eticket, CT should be looking at ways to get rid of fares all together.