Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Wow - Belleville is getting an AHL team?! Didn't see that coming.

Binghampton Senators are moving to Belleville next season.

[TownGuy]

Smart move by the Sens. They will be severely encroaching on Leafs territory.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Originally Posted by TownGuy

Smart move by the Sens. They will be severely encroaching on Leafs territory.

How many converted Senators' fans do you know in Eastern Ontario? Poaching from the Leafs and Habs has been a serious challenge, I'm guessing.

But you're right, it's a smart move.

[Horus]

I'm skeptical. Belleville is one of the smallest cities (if not THE smallest) in the AHL and will have the league's smallest arena capacity. While hockey interest is undoubtedly high in Southern and Eastern Ontario, Belleville and PE County seems just too small to support an AHL team. The Leafs tried a similar thing years ago when they put their AHL affiliate in nearby Newmarket, which, at the time, was bigger than present-day Belleville, and it failed miserably. Only now have the Marlies even gained a small foothold in Toronto and are drawing reasonably well.

I understand (some of) the rationale behind the Senators putting their AHL affiliate in Ontario as it is (somewhat) closer to Ottawa than Binghamton NY was, and no border crossings required, but this still seems like a odd move to me. I will be surprised if this arrangement lasts more than 5 years. Kingston would have made more sense, if it was felt that Kingston could support both the Fronts and the Baby Sens. It at least could draw existing Sens fans from Ottawa and areas south of the NCR.

[king10]

Originally Posted by Horus

I'm skeptical. Belleville is one of the smallest cities (if not THE smallest) in the AHL and will have the league's smallest arena capacity. While hockey interest is undoubtedly high in Southern and Eastern Ontario, Belleville and PE County seems just too small to support an AHL team. The Leafs tried a similar thing years ago when they put their AHL affiliate in nearby Newmarket, which, at the time, was bigger than present-day Belleville, and it failed miserably. Only now have the Marlies even gained a small foothold in Toronto and are drawing reasonably well.

I understand (some of) the rationale behind the Senators putting their AHL affiliate in Ontario as it is (somewhat) closer to Ottawa than Binghamton NY was, and no border crossings required, but this still seems like a odd move to me. I will be surprised if this arrangement lasts more than 5 years. Kingston would have made more sense, if it was felt that Kingston could support both the Fronts and the Baby Sens. It at least could draw existing Sens fans from Ottawa and areas south of the NCR.

Didn't Winnipeg have plans to move their AHL team to Thunder Bay pending arena construction?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by king10

Didn't Winnipeg have plans to move their AHL team to Thunder Bay pending arena construction?

AFAIK the Thunder Bay arena plans fell through. The Moose are in Winnipeg indefinitely.

FWIW the Moose are reasonably well supported. There was a fairly vocal contingent of fans who refused to support a minor league team during the years that the Jets were gone, although that stance softened as the years went by and the Moose became more and more successful. These days Jets fans buy into the Moose given that the team consists of Jets prospects. I could see the Moose remaining here for years to come... personally I prefer the Jets' farm team as the secondary club in our city as opposed to a junior team.

[J.OT13]

Belleville's arena is currently under renovation in preparation for the B-Sens debut. The capacity will grow from 3,257 to 4,400. Still on the small side, but not the smallest and only slightly smaller than the B-Sens current arena at 4,679. Sorry, couldn't find compete list of AHL arena capacities. Comment is based on article below and quick Wikipedia search of AHL's North division arenas.

In any case, look at Winnipeg; by far the smallest both in market and venue in all the NHL.

As of December, 2,000 people had placed deposits on season tickets. I for one and very optimistic the team will do well in Belleville.



http://www.insidebelleville.com/news-sto...city-gets-ready-for-belleville-senators/

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by thurmas

With the NHL always so hesitant and reluctant to expand into Canada the chances of the NHL moving to Hamilton is fairly slim when you add in the fact of the Sabres and Leafs asking for a boat load of money on top. Having a top notch intimate AHL or OHL facility with modern amenities and suites makes far more sense and bang for buck.

One can see a time in the not too distant future where metro Hamilton is bigger than metro Buffalo. I'm not suggesting that the Sabres will move but Hamilton's population will likely surge over the next 20 years with the GO Train upgrades.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Belleville's arena is currently under renovation in preparation for the B-Sens debut. The capacity will grow from 3,257 to 4,400. Still on the small side, but not the smallest and only slightly smaller than the B-Sens current arena at 4,679. Sorry, couldn't find compete list of AHL arena capacities. Comment is based on article below and quick Wikipedia search of AHL's North division arenas.

I found this - it's AHL attendance and capacities for this season as of mid-December 2016.


At 4400, Belleville's arena is only larger than Utica's arena.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

In any case, look at Winnipeg; by far the smallest both in market and venue in all the NHL.

As of December, 2,000 people had placed deposits on season tickets. I for one and very optimistic the team will do well in Belleville.

I'm not disputing that Belleville Senators will be popular next season. It's the new game in town and, naturally, people are going to want to check it out. I am highly skeptical of the long-term outlook for the success of this team in Belleville though. The Ottawa Senators are not a free-spending NHL team and I do not believe that they will endure sustained losses with an AHL team in Belleville, should that come to pass.

It's not comparable to the NHL in Winnipeg. The NHL carries much more prestige than does the AHL and despite Winnipeg's lower population than other NHL cities, the number of NHL fans has been estimated to fall more in the middle (as illustrated at fivethirtyeight.com - however dubious their methodology)


Even "tiny" Winnipeg is orders of magnitude larger than Belleville. They don't need close to 10% of their population to fill their building each night. Winnipeg was smart to bring their AHL affiliate in-house as it ultimately builds the brand of the parent NHL team. It's why Montreal is bringing their AHL team to Laval and why Toronto brought their AHL affiliate home. It has been an AHL-wide trend recently to bring AHL teams closer to their NHL parent city.

The Belleville team will be popular at first, I have no doubt. It may remain (relatively) popular among fans for years and attendance will likely be relatively good. However, I feel the chosen market is too small to sustain an AHL team which has substantially higher operating costs (player salaries, travel expenses) than an OHL team (which IMO Belleville is much better suited for).

If I were a resident of Belleville, I'd be very upset at my council for funding arena improvements for this team that has (again, IMO) little chance to succeed as a viable business entity. Perhaps at the end of this they reacquire an OHL team and all's well in the world.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

One can see a time in the not too distant future where metro Hamilton is bigger than metro Buffalo. I'm not suggesting that the Sabres will move but Hamilton's population will likely surge over the next 20 years with the GO Train upgrades.

It may happen but it will take some time. Buffalo still has about 400,000 on Hamilton, or 50% more people. Doesn't it?

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by Horus

It has been an AHL-wide trend recently to bring AHL teams closer to their NHL parent city.

Two exceptions to this rule seem to be Calgary and Edmonton. Both of their farm teams are in California. I'll never understand why they haven't made an attempt to put their farm teams in Regina and Saskatoon, respectively.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Two exceptions to this rule seem to be Calgary and Edmonton. Both of their farm teams are in California. I'll never understand why they haven't made an attempt to put their farm teams in Regina and Saskatoon, respectively.

This has been discussed numerous times.... It's possible that Stoon may more readily shift from the Blades to an AHL farm team, but it's less likely that Regina would shift from the Pats to some farm team... The Pats as of next year will have 100 years of history and that would be a shame to lose.

I would think the more likely choices for the two would be Medicine Hat or Lethbridge for Calgary and Red Deer for Edmonton. Keeps it in Alberta with possible closer attachments, and those WHL cities have a bit less history.

[cjones2451]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Two exceptions to this rule seem to be Calgary and Edmonton. Both of their farm teams are in California. I'll never understand why they haven't made an attempt to put their farm teams in Regina and Saskatoon, respectively.

Its also about travel for those teams in the AHL. They would be very isolated. There was an AHL team in Abbotsford, BC for the Flames and it was a disaster (granted Canucks fans didn't want too see Flames prospects)

[thurmas]

How long is it going to take Calgary to renovate McMahon? For such a flagship CFL franchise for the past 25 years to have to have such a dump for a stadium is embarrassing.

[Rollerstud98]

We want a new venue, not a reno. With the possibility of an Olympic bid certain things such as this may happen.

[thurmas]

Want and need are 2 different things. With the Alberta Economy in the shape it is in coupled with the Flames need for a new arena to compete with Edmonton for concerts dates from Rogers Arena that is going to be a massive bill.

[Rollerstud98]

You're looking at it like a "right now" thing though. 2026 is 9 years away and a lot can/will change in that time in regards to the economy here. Calgary got the Saddledome out of the last Olympics and it would be nice to get a couple more stadiums out of the next ones if they were to go to Calgary.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by thurmas

How long is it going to take Calgary to renovate McMahon? For such a flagship CFL franchise for the past 25 years to have to have such a dump for a stadium is embarrassing.

McMahon has nothing to do with the city of Calgary or the CSEC (owners of the Stampeders) as McMahon is owned by the University of Calgary and it more than meets the university's needs.

[VANRIDERFAN]

NMS placed 18th in stadium of the year judging.

http://stadiumdb.com/competitions/stadium_of_the_year_2016

[BretttheRiderFan]

I'd honestly be classifying a stadium in Calgary as a "need" at this point. McMahon is a bit of an embarrassment.