The future of Ottawa's Transit

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This means that the Hunt Club bridge will be widened, replaced or twinned.

Not necessarily. Northbound they could have the two trains crossing on the same track within 30 seconds of each other and pull into opposite sides of the platform. Similarly on southbound departure they could leave within 30 seconds of each other.

Originally Posted by zzptichka

For the record, here's how they have the connection planned right now. This will probably be a mess.

Here is how I figure they are planning it (in minutes and seconds):

1. 0:00 Airport Northbound arrives platform A.
2. 0:30 Bayview northbound arrives platform B
3. 1:00 Airport train pulls into middle siding (clearing platform A)
4. 1:30 Bowesville southbound arrives platform A
5. 2:00 Bayview Northbound departs platform B
6. 2:30 Airport southbound arrives platform B.
7. 3:00 Bowesville southboound departs platform A
8. 3:30 Airport southbound departs platform B.

Now maybe they are assuming a bit more time between trains, but it will likely be something like that. For it to work, everything needs to run like clockwork though.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Here is how I figure they are planning it (in minutes and seconds):

1. 0:00 Airport Northbound arrives platform A.
2. 0:30 Bayview northbound arrives platform B
3. 1:00 Airport train pulls into middle siding (clearing platform A)
4. 1:30 Bowesville southbound arrives platform A
5. 2:00 Bayview Northbound departs platform B
6. 2:30 Airport southbound arrives platform B.
7. 3:00 Bowesville southboound departs platform A
8. 3:30 Airport southbound departs platform B.

Now maybe they are assuming a bit more time between trains, but it will likely be something like that. For it to work, everything needs to run like clockwork though.

My guess they will have to use East platform for Northbound trains and West platform for Southbound. 3 trains maneuvering around one station in different directions is probably too much.

Either way, for first-time riders it will be confusing as hell.

Another question how many trains will circulate on the Airport link. Will 2 be enough?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

My guess they will have to use East platform for Northbound trains and West platform for Southbound. 3 trains maneuvering around one station in different directions is probably too much.

That would probably be simpler, but passengers wouldn't be able to walk across the platform to the train. For this to work smoothly they would optimally they would have a triple track/double platform arrangement (like is proposed for Lincoln Fields). The Airport train would arrive/depart from the middle track and passengers would exit east to go north and west to go south. All three trains would be at the station at the same time with the airport train arriving first and departing last.

Either way, for first-time riders it will be confusing as hell.

Agreed.

Another question how many trains will circulate on the Airport link. Will 2 be enough?

It should about a 5 minute ride to the airport (maybe a bit longer) so 2 trains would be sufficient to allow long dwell times at either terminus and still keep a 10 minute frequency. They might go with 1 train and have a 20 minute frequency though. It is unlikely this train will be full unless their is a large public event at the EY Centre.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I think there is merit to this. The Trillium line would then be viewed as an airport line.

Yes. Politically though they still want rail to South Ottawa. Every 10 minutes with a transfer will be far from convenient though. The current plan clearly makes no sense.

[Aylmer]

Yeah, I never got why they want to extend rail to Bowesville. It's literally smack damn in the middle of a field, a few kms away from nowhere. For anyone who doesn't drive to the P&R, it'll be a — transfer. I should know - for years in Aylmer, we were forced to wait for our local buses in a desolate P&R and everyone hated it; it was sweltering in the summer beside a giant surface of pavement, the frigid wind sweeps across in the winter and the rest of the time, it's either boring, dark or creepy.

If I were living in Riverside South, I would much, much prefer to have my local bus make its way to someplace where I could go run a few errands while waiting, or at least not feel that I could get mugged without anyone knowing for hours.

If they were to build the South Keys-Bowesville segment as a much less expensive busway, rush-hour buses could head directly to Hurdman, chopping off a transfer. If it's deemed too expensive to send the local buses all the way there in off-peak, then they could terminate at South Keys, which would still be a much better transfer point than Bowesville.

[FFX-ME]

Clearly the line should have terminated at the airport.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Yeah, I never got why they want to extend rail to Bowesville. It's literally smack damn in the middle of a field, a few kms away from nowhere. For anyone who doesn't drive to the P&R, it'll be a — transfer. I should know - for years in Aylmer, we were forced to wait for our local buses in a desolate P&R and everyone hated it; it was sweltering in the summer beside a giant surface of pavement, the frigid wind sweeps across in the winter and the rest of the time, it's either boring, dark or creepy.

If I were living in Riverside South, I would much, much prefer to have my local bus make its way to someplace where I could go run a few errands while waiting, or at least not feel that I could get mugged without anyone knowing for hours.

If they were to build the South Keys-Bowesville segment as a much less expensive busway, rush-hour buses could head directly to Hurdman, chopping off a transfer. If it's deemed too expensive to send the local buses all the way there in off-peak, then they could terminate at South Keys, which would still be a much better transfer point than Bowesville.

This is the flaw of the whole plan. I have been to the Leitrim Park n Ride and it is really an obscure location. I wouldn't want to wait for a bus there but that is the expectation. Bowesville will be similar, concealed well away from the road and surrounded by bush.

We have cheaped out on this entire plan. The DMUs cannot run right into Riverside South because it is the wrong type of train to fit with the community plan. Also, in order to save the cost of building another overpass, it was decided to stop east of Bowesville instead of west of Bowesville and a little closer to where development will someday be located.

This is guaranteed to be not as successful as it could be.

But think, the Moodie Drive terminus will be similar. An obscure empty place. Far from an ideal location to wait half an hour for a bus, and no places to spend your time while you wait for your bus.

Major rapid transit terminals should be associated with shopping centres and not out in empty fields or in the bush.

[Acajack]

Won't the Riverside South community eventually grow eastwards towards Bowesville Station?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Won't the Riverside South community eventually grow eastwards towards Bowesville Station?

Yes, but not that far east. The station may be on airport land. The area around the station will not be developed. Riverside South town centre will be just south of the Limebank - Earl Armstrong intersection, no where near this station.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Major rapid transit terminals should be associated with shopping centres and not out in empty fields or in the bush.

The same should be true, unless utterly unavoidable, even of minor rapid transit stations.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is the flaw of the whole plan. I have been to the Leitrim Park n Ride and it is really an obscure location. I wouldn't want to wait for a bus there but that is the expectation. Bowesville will be similar, concealed well away from the road and surrounded by bush.

We have cheaped out on this entire plan. The DMUs cannot run right into Riverside South because it is the wrong type of train to fit with the community plan. Also, in order to save the cost of building another overpass, it was decided to stop east of Bowesville instead of west of Bowesville and a little closer to where development will someday be located.

This is guaranteed to be not as successful as it could be.

But think, the Moodie Drive terminus will be similar. An obscure empty place. Far from an ideal location to wait half an hour for a bus, and no places to spend your time while you wait for your bus.

Major rapid transit terminals should be associated with shopping centres and not out in empty fields or in the bush.

even if the buses are more like every 15 minutes a trip downtown could end up taking more than an hour. Will they cancel all the express buses that currently ply this route? This seems to be far from an improvement for most.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I have been to the Leitrim Park n Ride and it is really an obscure location. I wouldn't want to wait for a bus there but that is the expectation. Bowesville will be similar, concealed well away from the road and surrounded by bush.

The DMUs cannot run right into Riverside South because it is the wrong type of train to fit with the community plan.

Even if the train did extend to Riverside South, people commuting from Findlay Creek and other regions South of the Airport will still need to transfer at Leitrim park with LRT. Only a transitway extension will allow everyone a direct route to a major station.

[Aylmer]

But at least there would be the argument that the LRT's extension would help to sustain transit-oriented development, something that BRT is generally not quite as adept at doing. Someone once said "BRT is a transportation project; LRT is an urban project" ("L'autobus, c'est un projet de transport; Le tram, c'est un projet de ville").

If a station at Bowesville were part of a larger urban project, then I'd feel differently. But if it's just a shuttle to a parking lot, may as well use a bus, especially when it would be less costly, less complicated and arguably result in better service for most people. I'm thinking of people heading to the airport who would be spared a transfer, people in RS who could be spared a transfer by heading to Hurdman or at least spared a really crappy wait in a far-removed parking lot.

It might also be really cool to see the money saved by building the Bowesville extension as BRT go into improving the existing parts of the Trillium Line in preparation for an eventual conversion into double-tracked, low-floor LRT which could make its way straight into RS.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Will they cancel all the express buses that currently ply this route?

All "Express" buses as we know them will be cancelled once the Confederation line opens and they will be replaced with "Connexion" routes that will stop at the "nearest" LRT station. In the case of Ottawa south, I would assume that they will be extended to Hurdman to provide a single transfer to downtown, but after stage 2, most if not all will likely stop at the closest Trillium line station to save money (that is what Ottawa's LRT plan is actually all about).

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

All "Express" buses as we know them will be cancelled once the Confederation line opens and they will be replaced with "Connexion" routes that will stop at the "nearest" LRT station. In the case of Ottawa south, I would assume that they will be extended to Hurdman to provide a single transfer to downtown, but after stage 2, most if not all will likely stop at the closest Trillium line station to save money (that is what Ottawa's LRT plan is actually all about).

They better not do that. Even with rail, two transfers are too unreliable. If that is the plan, I will be speaking to my city councillor. Two transfers is too many for a simple trip downtown.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

even if the buses are more like every 15 minutes a trip downtown could end up taking more than an hour. Will they cancel all the express buses that currently ply this route? This seems to be far from an improvement for most.

It is that trip home if you are travelling in off-peak hours. I can just see it. The train will run every 10 minutes but the connecting buses will be every 30 or 60 minutes. It will be a long trip with potentially long waits in a parking lot. This is why they are planning a huge parking lot. The train-bus transfer will be horrible. You might as well drive. But then, this will just make fewer people use the train as well. We are planning the Trillium Line like American cities do. Poor integration with the surrounding community therefore poor ridership.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes. Politically though they still want rail to South Ottawa. Every 10 minutes with a transfer will be far from convenient though. The current plan clearly makes no sense.

Every 10 minutes?

There are huge areas of town that would murder to have that kind of frequency.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

All "Express" buses as we know them will be cancelled once the Confederation line opens and they will be replaced with "Connexion" routes that will stop at the "nearest" LRT station. In the case of Ottawa south, I would assume that they will be extended to Hurdman to provide a single transfer to downtown, but after stage 2, most if not all will likely stop at the closest Trillium line station to save money (that is what Ottawa's LRT plan is actually all about).

Then what's the remaining SE Transitway for?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Every 10 minutes?

There are huge areas of town that would murder to have that kind of frequency.

True but with a transfer on either end the time will really add up in case of delays.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is that trip home if you are travelling in off-peak hours. I can just see it. The train will run every 10 minutes but the connecting buses will be every 30 or 60 minutes. It will be a long trip with potentially long waits in a parking lot. This is why they are planning a huge parking lot. The train-bus transfer will be horrible. You might as well drive. But then, this will just make fewer people use the train as well. We are planning the Trillium Line like American cities do. Poor integration with the surrounding community therefore poor ridership.

These express riders are also the most likely people to have a car sitting in the garage that they could use if service gets bad. Parking being the obvious constraint. Personally, I have probably never even been to the far flung suburbs served by these routes, but people always claim it's actually very efficient and not a bad commute. Not anymore I guess.