Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[waves]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

A thought I had when reading another thread. Has there ever been a proposal to run a Gondola from Downtown to Kits? It seems that would be a natural connection. The West End isn't that well served by rapid transit... not since we lost Vancouver's monorail.

Why do you need a gondola? There is the small ferry and the Burrard Street bridge that work just fine imo.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Honestly streetcars can be a really great way of getting around, especially if the city can implement them at low cost.

I mean the cost to reopen the false creek line would be tiny, the city could do it completely independently of Translink.

Street Cars are just as bad as LRT because they have to run on rails in the middle of the street. The trolley cable bus system is the perfect "street car" as is because they can switch lanes, take evasive action and removed from the line quickly if there is a problem.

The ONLY place rail is appropriate in a City is if it is grade seperated (Skytrain) or corridor separated (Arbutus)

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by waves

Street Cars are just as bad as LRT because they have to run on rails in the middle of the street. The trolley cable bus system is the perfect "street car" as is because they can switch lanes, take evasive action and removed from the line quickly if there is a problem.

The ONLY place rail is appropriate in a City is if it is grade seperated (Skytrain) or corridor separated (Arbutus)

I don't really want to open the classic LRT debate but, what I will say is that Toronto our Canadian sibling has a large network of streetcars which are rapid and function very well. Of course accidents happen but it is quite infrequent and the service provided is usually excellent. The capacity offered especially with newer cars is significantly more than with articulated buses and as you mentioned they can be put in ROW's.

Obviously grade separation is ideal however, it is also very costly and in numerous cases just inst an option. With proper design and signal priority streetcars (which are used in numerous great transit cities as PART of their transit mix e.g. Paris, Amsterdam)can provide more capacity and more importantly in my opinion a better ride than buses. From what I have personally found buses are much less comfortable due to the increased swaying and bouncing which makes standing quite unpleasant. Obviously we aren't going to go replacing all buses, but denying that streetcars are a good middle ground (especially if we can implement them at a low cost) seems pointless.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by waves

Why do you need a gondola? There is the small ferry and the Burrard Street bridge that work just fine imo.

Also, where would you put the stations, and how would you connect them to the rest of the network? It's worth discussing if those two problems can be solved.

[waves]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I don't really want to open the classic LRT debate.

Haha, well, this is exactly what you have done. In that case I won't comment any further other than to say I disagree with you pretty much 100%.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by waves

Haha, well, this is exactly what you have done. In that case I won't comment any further other than to say I disagree with you pretty much 100%.

[Steveston]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Is there any word on reducing distance between bus bays and station entrance at Brighouse station? I don't enjoy walking across town to get on the train.

I saw "Brighouse Station Exchange Improvements" on a map of transit upgrades and projects in a TransLink presentation to Richmond's Transportation & Public Works Committee recently, so it's definitely on the radar.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Steveston

I saw "Brighouse Station Exchange Improvements" on a map of transit upgrades and projects in a TransLink presentation to Richmond's Transportation & Public Works Committee recently, so it's definitely on the radar.

Link?

[ilikeredheads]

Originally Posted by Steveston

I saw "Brighouse Station Exchange Improvements" on a map of transit upgrades and projects in a TransLink presentation to Richmond's Transportation & Public Works Committee recently, so it's definitely on the radar.

I thought the original plan was to convert the lot where the now-demolished Scotiabank was into a bus loop. Is that still happening?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Imo pretty concerning, when the big one hits I imagine being on the Skytrain might be one of the worst possible places, is we get a M9 on Cascadia or a M7 under Vancouver you can bet on the train derailing and if it has much speed possibly going off he guideway. I'm not really sure whether it's connected or not but if it isn't then that should really be a priority

The major fault lines are nowhere near Vancouver- they're near or around Vancouver Island.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

To completely change the topic, I know we currently have two bike parkades, are more planned? Right now if feels almost like a novelty but with more it could actually become hugely useful. Also any expansion plan for Mobi? If it's not already at UBC that seems like a logical extension, as well as near transit stations ofc.

Gotta love cycling infrastructure, for pennies compared to rapid transit lines you can build huge amounts that will still be incredibly useful.

Assuming that many people actually use them to get around, and not to exercise...

Originally Posted by Feathered Friend

At one of the Arbutus Corridor events, I spoke with someone from the city who is in a position to have good insight in regards to the COV's transit priorities.

I was told that the next three projects will be:
1. The Millennium Line;
2. The Street Car Network; and
3. A Hastings Line (negotiations with Burnaby will determine where it the line goes after/at Boundary

41st will remain a B-line for quite the foreseeable future. There is also serious consideration to having the M-line become elevated as it heads further west of Arbutus.

I should add, I had a few drinks in me after the Big Rock Brewery open house, so blame any slightly incorrect understandings on me.

I thought there wasn't enough demand beyond Boundary/PNE to justify a Skytrain to Burnaby on Hastings?

But if they ever do, they would need to build a connection to WCE and a 2nd BMG to make it actually worth it, I would rekon...

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I guess that depends on your definition of low cost. It would still be over $50M to get everything up and running. That's about 5% of the city's annual budget, coming from where exactly?

Plus it's likely it would require ongoing operational costs, who's going to pay? And who's going to use a system not integrated with Translink and Compass?

It could be integrated into Compass and Translink if they financed it.

But how much better is that over frequent Bus service?

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

A thought I had when reading another thread. Has there ever been a proposal to run a Gondola from Downtown to Kits? It seems that would be a natural connection. The West End isn't that well served by rapid transit... not since we lost Vancouver's monorail.

Vancouver had a monorail?

In any case, maybe we could make a small Canada Line Extension, or Expo Line Spur, tunneling under Alberni St to connect to the Commerical and Shopping districts in Robson and Georgia?

I don't think Kits people would appreciate a Gondola. It would be more viable for a Bus lane on Burrard to be made, and for that bridge to be widened.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Assuming that many people actually use them to get around, and not to exercise...

Plenty of people ride bikes - and it's increased since they added bike racks to buses and allowed bikes on Skytrain.

What's wrong with exercising?

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Plenty of people ride bikes - and it's increased since they added bike racks to buses and allowed bikes on Skytrain.

What's wrong with exercising?

I used to always think that it was kind of a bad investment because who in their right mind would want to ride in all the rain we get most of the year (tho climate change says we might be getting less).

When I cam to Toronto I was shocked to see what felt like almost more people biking here even on non-segregated lanes in freezing rain and snow, so Im not convinced Vancouver can really go all in with bikes....

[Migrant_Coconut]

If Vancouverites had that kind of dedication, I'd be more welcoming of the new lanes; the mere hint of bad weather makes all our bikers get back into their cars.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I thought there wasn't enough demand beyond Boundary/PNE to justify a Skytrain to Burnaby on Hastings?

But if they ever do, they would need to build a connection to WCE and a 2nd BMG to make it actually worth it, I would rekon...

<snip>

In any case, maybe we could make a small Canada Line Extension, or Expo Line Spur, tunneling under Alberni St to connect to the Commerical and Shopping districts in Robson and Georgia?

New fourth SkyTrain along Robson -> Cambie -> Hastings -> Willingdon -> Patterson, with room to extend it north through Stanley Park and up Lions Gate to Park Royal. Abracadabra!

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If Vancouverites had that kind of dedication, I'd be more welcoming of the new lanes; the mere hint of bad weather makes all our bikers get back into their cars.

Uhm not all. One of my friends basically treats his bike like a car and rides everywhere. Rain doesn't phase him. He'll ride in snow (ice is a problem and slush is even worse). About the only thing that stops him is total darkness, as even with lights on and following the rules of the road, he was hit by a car. Where he works there's a fairly large section with no street lights and he's had to take his bike on transit on his way home. After the time change (less than a month from now!) he won't need to do that.

[Reecemartin]

Yeah I think the infrastructure we have is really starting to build critical mass.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I don't really want to open the classic LRT debate but, what I will say is that Toronto our Canadian sibling has a large network of streetcars which are rapid and function very well. Of course accidents happen but it is quite infrequent and the service provided is usually excellent. The capacity offered especially with newer cars is significantly more than with articulated buses and as you mentioned they can be put in ROW's.

Obviously grade separation is ideal however, it is also very costly and in numerous cases just inst an option. With proper design and signal priority streetcars (which are used in numerous great transit cities as PART of their transit mix e.g. Paris, Amsterdam)can provide more capacity and more importantly in my opinion a better ride than buses. From what I have personally found buses are much less comfortable due to the increased swaying and bouncing which makes standing quite unpleasant. Obviously we aren't going to go replacing all buses, but denying that streetcars are a good middle ground (especially if we can implement them at a low cost) seems pointless.

This is the entire problem with street-running LRV's. They are not ever properly engineered.

Like all it takes to ruin the morning commute is someone parking their car on the rails.

Source: https://twitter.com/bradTTC/status/834730181273202689

If a streetcar network was to be properly engineered, they have to consider that people are going to make some really boneheaded mistakes, get hit by LRV's, or drive into them. Streetcars are only viable in cities that are far less dense and have no gridlock, which means they are uneconomical to run.

I'm sorry, but the day Vancouver decides to put street-cars back on the downtown peninsula, is the day the city has stopped using common sense. I would not be surprised if the next city council decides to sell the Arbutus Corridor just to "flip it" and spite the current city council. You can not put a street car system back into operation after not running it for 70 years when the city density calls for rapid transit, and even tore up the last tourist historical street car.

There are a few places that might benefit from it, but the city would have to ban all car and pedestrian traffic from crossing the rails in the area to make taking the street car viable, and that just is not going to happen without making all the roads one-way, right-hand-turn only. The Trolleybus is more flexible and cost effective without making such drastic changes. As it is, the city geography is not particularly good for light rail anyway. That is why Seattle's light rail system is a mostly underground, the terrain just is too steep.

[Aroundtheworld]

^ Look, I don't believe LRT is the right option in Surrey, but to use a few breakdowns as a reason to invalidate an entire technology is a stretch IMO. There are plenty of cities where LRT and trams work well that are higher density. I've heard that the trams in the Parisian suburbs work quite well; they have dedicated corridors and signal priority.

BRT will break down, Skytrain has broken down, gondolas have broken down. Each technology has its place, it's about finding the right one for each situation.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

^ Look, I don't believe LRT is the right option in Surrey, but to use a few breakdowns as a reason to invalidate an entire technology is a stretch IMO. There are plenty of cities where LRT and trams work well that are higher density. I've heard that the trams in the Parisian suburbs work quite well; they have dedicated corridors and signal priority.

BRT will break down, Skytrain has broken down, gondolas have broken down. Each technology has its place, it's about finding the right one for each situation.

Yes, but the impairment to the city is substantially worse on manually operated systems, and the breakdown frequency is uncontrolled with at-grade systems since the operator has no control over the city maintenance.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Like all it takes to ruin the morning commute is someone parking their car on the rails.

So what was the deal with that, anyway? They had to bring in a "special crane" to remove the car? Why on earth couldn't they just have used a tow truck?