Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

First we need a new provincial government that gives a damn about one of it's primary revenue generating metropolitan areas. Most other parts of the province are subject to inconsistent boom and bust cycles (forestry, mining, LNG etc.)

It's a slap in the face to wait until its election time to propose these infrastructure projects.

Not Many people realize that it was the same team that got Mr. Harper in to run the country as got Christy Clark to run BC. Same people, political party doesn't mean much any more, a Conservative in Liberal clothing.

The worst part is that their is alot of lead time to these big projects. Ontario is getting started now and most of the projects will be done in the early 2020's. And mind you these are projects which each individually eclipse the scope of most BC transit projects.

I find it incredible that something like Site C is getting built with a 10 billion dollar price tag where that money combined with regional and federal money could pay for:

- Millenium Line Extension to UBC and potentially POCO
- Expo Line Extension to Langley
- Millenium Line OMC expansion
- Surrey Newton-Guildford LRT
- Burnaby Mountain Gondola
- New Skytrain cars on all lines
- New Patullo
+ All the other improvements

Now I'm sure Site C will have a large impact but imagine the impact on our regions GDP if all these projects were built, imagine the business and development it would draw.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I find it incredible that something like Site C is getting built with a 10 billion dollar price tag where that money combined with regional and federal money could pay for:

Site C will benefit way more people, provide cheap clean energy for thousands of BC industry, likely allow BC to export a lot more clean energy, and will easily last 100 years.

It's a much better investment of taxpayer money considering it will likely pay itself off.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Site C will benefit way more people, provide cheap clean energy for thousands of BC industry, likely allow BC to export a lot more clean energy, and will easily last 100 years.

It's a much better investment of taxpayer money considering it will likely pay itself off.

Extending our transit has most of those effects already, with the rapidly falling costs of photovoltaics and wind this investments might be dead in the water 15 years after its built in terms of exporting clean energy. (We export to the US particularly California which is deploy solar in a big way)

In many senses transit just as well pays itself off in reduced congestion, emissions, and increased development and investment.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Extending our transit has most of those effects already, with the rapidly falling costs of photovoltaics and wind this investments might be dead in the water 15 years after its built in terms of exporting clean energy.

BC is not optimal for photovoltaics, which won't still aren't efficient enough or cost effective without massive subsidies. They also don't work as a base load since solar and wind are intermittent. Unless you have massive production capacity and massive storage capacity, they aren't viable as the backbone of your electricity generation network.

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

In many senses transit just as well pays itself off in reduced congestion, emissions, and increased development and investment.

The amount of power this dam will produce is many time greater than what would be saved by building transit, which also needs to be powered, by the way.

I'm not against mass transit investment, but I do think that this dam is a better investment of public funds. After nuclear, hydroelectric, especially in BC, is the best way to create the bulk of your electricity.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Jebby

BC is not optimal for photovoltaics, which won't still aren't efficient enough or cost effective without massive subsidies. They also don't work as a base load since solar and wind are intermittent. Unless you have massive production capacity and massive storage capacity, they aren't viable as the backbone of your electricity generation network.

The other issue with renewable power in BC is that it doesn't even reduce CO2 emissions by any substantial amount. In areas where power is generated from dirty fuels, even though you may need that dirty power when wind or solar isn't available you can at least reduce it's usage when they are available. That's not the case in BC, which already has enviously clean power.

[Metro-One]

I do agree that the province should be more upfront with money for transit expansion.

With that said, the direct comparison to Ontario is not quite apples to apples.

First of all, while we have been continually expanding our skytrain network, there was quite a long period in Ontario / Toronto when nothing much new was added / expanded. They are now playing catch up in a big way (similar to our road and bridge expansions now).

Also, Toronto is roughly 3X the size of Vancouver, so even with their large expansions and our moderate expansions in the works, per-person Vancouver will still be very comparable to Toronto.

Also the sheer population of southern Ontario (especially regarding the close proximity of other major cities within the same country) really helps enable commuter rail and other regional rail systems.

With that said, Vancouver Island should have a commuter rail line (at least between Nanaimo and Victoria), and the Fraser Valley should have a Abbotsford and Chillwack connected to metro-Van via commuter rail.

Still, if all goes well the expansions in our play book are not small expansions, Broadway Subway, Surrey L-Line LRT, and extending skytrain to Langley are all very big expansions. For a metro under 3 million our mass transit system is actually becoming pretty decent.

[WarrenC12]

With respect to Site C vs. the transit projects outlined, BC should be funding both. We can certainly afford it.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

With respect to Site C vs. the transit projects outlined, BC should be funding both. We can certainly afford it.

That's debatable. BC has a net debt of over $66 billion.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I do agree that the province should be more upfront with money for transit expansion.

With that said, the direct comparison to Ontario is not quite apples to apples.

First of all, while we have been continually expanding our skytrain network, there was quite a long period in Ontario / Toronto when nothing much new was added / expanded. They are now playing catch up in a big way (similar to our road and bridge expansions now).

Also, Toronto is roughly 3X the size of Vancouver, so even with their large expansions and our moderate expansions in the works, per-person Vancouver will still be very comparable to Toronto.

Also the sheer population of southern Ontario (especially regarding the close proximity of other major cities within the same country) really helps enable commuter rail and other regional rail systems.

With that said, Vancouver Island should have a commuter rail line (at least between Nanaimo and Victoria), and the Fraser Valley should have a Abbotsford and Chillwack connected to metro-Van via commuter rail.

Still, if all goes well the expansions in our play book are not small expansions, Broadway Subway, Surrey L-Line LRT, and extending skytrain to Langley are all very big expansions. For a metro under 3 million our mass transit system is actually becoming pretty decent.

You make some very good points here, the city of Toronto alone exceeds our regions population and if you look at the GO Transit service area the population approaches 10 million, nonetheless I still there's alot we can learn from the TTC and maybe even more so GO. One thing for example that surprises me alot is the lack of more fare gates at our busiest stations and also the lack of screens showing when buses are arriving next at th e station. Lots of small conveniences that are inexpensive to implement but make the transit just that much better. The most interesting Metrolinx/GO project Imo is how they are trying to liven up stations, I think the concept of offering some services and retail in stations as well as providing lots of seating can go along way in adding character.

[Metro-One]

Oh I agree with that 100 percent. There are a lot of details and finishing aspects I would love to tweak on our system in Vancouver. More covered walkways, standardized Canada/Evergreen Line style displays across the system, more faregates, more retail, a direct connection underground between Van City Centre and Granville Stations that would not require exiting the fare paid zone, etc...

[Migrant_Coconut]

^ Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Sometimes I wish the forum had a "Like" button.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

^ Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. Sometimes I wish the forum had a "Like" button.

I'm surprised there isn't a Vancouver specific site akin to Urban Toronto.

And well lots of these details are the very thing we should advocate for, go to community meetings and fill out surveys and speak your mind.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Jebby

That's debatable. BC has a net debt of over $66 billion.

The debt load is manageable, and Site C and the UBC line are excellent long term investments that can be undertaken while interest rates are at historic lows. There is quite literally no better time to borrow to invest in the future.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The debt load is manageable, and Site C and the UBC line are excellent long term investments that can be undertaken while interest rates are at historic lows. There is quite literally no better time to borrow to invest in the future.

You sound like Donald Trump!

Sure, it's manageable for now. But what do we do when interest rates rise?

Although I do have to say is that if we are going to burden our kids and grandkids with having to pay these debts, at least they'll be to pay down infrastructure projects that will last 100 years.

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The debt load is manageable, and Site C and the UBC line are excellent long term investments that can be undertaken while interest rates are at historic lows. There is quite literally no better time to borrow to invest in the future.

I thought the economic study of Site C showed there was absolutely no economic case. The report I read said that electricity consumption is stable and really this project is not needed, especially at the massive environmental damage cost.

[a very long weekend]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

- Millenium Line Extension to UBC and potentially POCO
- Expo Line Extension to Langley
- Millenium Line OMC expansion
- Surrey Newton-Guildford LRT
- Burnaby Mountain Gondola
- New Skytrain cars on all lines
- New Patullo
+ All the other improvements

what is the Millenium Line OMC expansion?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

what is the Millenium Line OMC expansion?

Operations and Maintenance Centre. They want to run more SkyTrain cars, so they need a bigger depot and more rails.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

what is the Millenium Line OMC expansion?

Currently they only have enough stock to run 2 car trains from VCC to Lafarge Lake, when the line is all the way out to Arbutus and UBC the traffic will likely demand 4 car service at fairly high frequencies. Fortunately there was a small yard built as part of the Evergreen Line and from what I can see it looks like there is lots of room for it to be expanded into adjacent land that's what I am referring to.

One benefit of the automated system is that we don't necessarily need much train storage space, rather we just need repair and cleaning capacity. Trains can be parked anywhere on the system at night. (Though that's not ideal for track maintenance)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The debt load is manageable, and Site C and the UBC line are excellent long term investments that can be undertaken while interest rates are at historic lows. There is quite literally no better time to borrow to invest in the future.

Originally Posted by Jebby

You sound like Donald Trump!

Sure, it's manageable for now. But what do we do when interest rates rise?

Although I do have to say is that if we are going to burden our kids and grandkids with having to pay these debts, at least they'll be to pay down infrastructure projects that will last 100 years.

You have already burdened our kids and grand kids with the high housing, high energy costs, and low wages.

What is one more kick in the nuts to the generations the old farts call "entitled"?

[dothediu]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Currently they only have enough stock to run 2 car trains from VCC to Lafarge Lake, when the line is all the way out to Arbutus and UBC the traffic will likely demand 4 car service at fairly high frequencies. Fortunately there was a small yard built as part of the Evergreen Line and from what I can see it looks like there is lots of room for it to be expanded into adjacent land that's what I am referring to.

There is no such thing as a Millennium line OMC expansion. There is a small vehicle storage yard between Inlet and Coquitlam Central Station on the Evergreen line, which I don't think can do much maintenance. If they wanted a second OMC, I think they would've built that with the Evergreen line.

https://goo.gl/maps/jPPwRi3fUZn

The only OMC remains at Edmonds. Even with the extension to Arbutus, I dont think there is plan for another OMC, or expansion of the Evergreen vechicle storage yard.