Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[flipper316]

who really cares what colour the transit vehicles are. As long as they are safe, frequent, reliable and affordable. Don't think the average joe schmo gives a damn as long as transit provides those 4 services.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by flipper316

who really cares what colour the transit vehicles are. As long as they are safe, frequent, reliable and affordable. Don't think the average joe schmo gives a damn as long as transit provides those 4 services.

Well I mean we are on a transit forum so I think you can answer that yourself.

Of course the livery isn't THAT important however a great livery can really become part of the brand just look at London for example all there services appear cohesive because they use a common livery. When you look at Tokyo they use their livery differently to differentiate lines and services, nonetheless the livery is a powerful thing because humans are visual creatures.

[AverageJoe]

Originally Posted by flipper316

who really cares what colour the transit vehicles are. As long as they are safe, frequent, reliable and affordable. Don't think the average joe schmo gives a damn as long as transit provides those 4 services.

I beg to differ.

[AverageJoe]

I was just on my way back to Vancouver from Chilliwack last night. Driving by a 66 FVX bus between Abbotsford and Langley on a Saturday night (around 7pm), I was surprised to see the amount of passengers using it. Seems like most of the seats were used. I know the service started out a little slow but if last night was any indication, usage has gone up quite a bit. Does anyone know if this is indeed the case?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Since Ive been trying to better understand what future construction will be needed to maintain the Expo Line I found this page on the concrete guideway structure used in the Millenium Line: http://www.cement.ca/en/Public-Transit/Skytrain-Millennium-Line.html

It turns out the guideway are designed to last 100 years (not sure where things would stand after that long). Would be interesting to see longevity estimates for the Expo Line to get an idea of the improvements made.

Watch any documentary like "Life after People" or "Population Zero" to learn just how long concrete will last. It turns out that reinforced concrete has a much shorter lifespan than straight cement (portland cement, roman cement.) The really interesting part about it is that reinforced cement lasts forever until it gets wet.

So in our climate, it's very likely that things made out of reinforced concrete will disintegrate much faster than say... Nevada. However our stuff will last longer because we don't use as much road salt as the rest of the province or the country.

That said, 100 years is a relatively conservative measure. Since most of the Millennium Line is in the middle of road, while the Expo line is down a former rail ROW, the Expo line might actually last a little bit longer save for the initial segment down Terminal.

The key thing is maintenance. Concrete buildings don't last for 100 years primarily because they allow water to pool on the rooftops, thus the water gets into the concrete and then the rebar oxidizes and expands, destroying the concrete. I'd assume that the concrete used for the guideways is either more water resistant (given our climate) or has proper drainage so that water doesn't have time to soak into the concrete.

Even if the guideways only last 100 years, they can be replaced in pieces.
Compared with at-grade LRT's that aren't even designed to last 30 years. You run them into the ground and then have to replace the rails and LRV's even if you maintain the LRV's, because the capacity will need to be improved anyway.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Watch any documentary like "Life after People" or "Population Zero" to learn just how long concrete will last. It turns out that reinforced concrete has a much shorter lifespan than straight cement (portland cement, roman cement.) The really interesting part about it is that reinforced cement lasts forever until it gets wet.

So in our climate, it's very likely that things made out of reinforced concrete will disintegrate much faster than say... Nevada. However our stuff will last longer because we don't use as much road salt as the rest of the province or the country.

That said, 100 years is a relatively conservative measure. Since most of the Millennium Line is in the middle of road, while the Expo line is down a former rail ROW, the Expo line might actually last a little bit longer save for the initial segment down Terminal.

The key thing is maintenance. Concrete buildings don't last for 100 years primarily because they allow water to pool on the rooftops, thus the water gets into the concrete and then the rebar oxidizes and expands, destroying the concrete. I'd assume that the concrete used for the guideways is either more water resistant (given our climate) or has proper drainage so that water doesn't have time to soak into the concrete.

Even if the guideways only last 100 years, they can be replaced in pieces.
Compared with at-grade LRT's that aren't even designed to last 30 years. You run them into the ground and then have to replace the rails and LRV's even if you maintain the LRV's, because the capacity will need to be improved anyway.

The part about replacement is very true, since I've been I Toronto I've seen numerous streetcar tracks get ripped up to be rebuilt, however something makes me feel like in the long run guideway will be worse than tunnels or at grade track because you can really rebuild them one foot at a time, you have to replace the whole segment from one support to the next which Id imagine is no fast task (must take a week?). Might also be difficult when the Expo Line needs to be replaced since alot of sections of track don't have much breathing room.

I suppose when the time comes to replace guideway segments they may just shut down the section between 2 stations for a week and then have tons of work occur in parallel.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

...something makes me feel like in the long run guideway will be worse than tunnels or at grade track because you can really rebuild them one foot at a time, you have to replace the whole segment from one support to the next...

...and let's not forget the columns themselves.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

...and let's not forget the columns themselves.

Very true, can only hope the process is one that can be sped up with enough money and willpower.

With the earthquake happening, I'm drawn back to Skytrains preparedness I remember hearing we were installing some offshore sensors. Does Translink have a system to automatically stop the trains in the case of an earthquake? I haven't heard much but I'd imagine Translink would have plans to connect to this system similar to what they do in Japan. Imagining a train going fast around a curve when a magnitude 7 hits is a scary idea, especially when you live directly next to the guideway.

[cganuelas1995]

What's with the extended dwell times on the expo line?

[MIPS]

Does Translink have a system to automatically stop the trains in the case of an earthquake? I haven't heard much but I'd imagine Translink would have plans to connect to this system similar to what they do in Japan.

I believe there's both an intertia system at OMC plus the system is tied into the provincial earthquake alert system.

who really cares what colour the transit vehicles are. As long as they are safe, frequent, reliable and affordable. Don't think the average joe schmo gives a damn as long as transit provides those 4 services.

The issue is that unlike most other metros where you are either at or below grade, the SkyTrain is elevated so everyone can see it. Filthy trains look really unappealing.


Image courtesy of The Georgia Straight

[trofirhen]

.... but the original MarkI trains. Can't wait until they're phased out. Plus, they're like dinky toys.

[Xerx]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Of course the livery isn't THAT important however a great livery can really become part of the brand just look at London for example all there services appear cohesive because they use a common livery. When you look at Tokyo they use their livery differently to differentiate lines and services, nonetheless the livery is a powerful thing because humans are visual creatures.

Actually, that's not quite true for London. While the buses all have more or less the same livery, the rail services all have different liveries when you compare the Overground to the Underground to the DLR to the tram. Add in the future Crossrail, and that has another livery. And I didn't even mention all of the suburban rail services.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

What's with the extended dwell times on the expo line?

Problem train at Columbia this afternoon. Sadly I don't have any more details.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by MIPS

I believe there's both an intertia system at OMC plus the system is tied into the provincial earthquake alert system.


The issue is that unlike most other metros where you are either at or below grade, the SkyTrain is elevated so everyone can see it. Filthy trains look really unappealing.

That train looks a healthy amount dystopian.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Image courtesy of The Georgia Straight

That was one of the reason why the new skytrain livery color is dark grey/blue. It is much more difficult to see a dirty spot on a Mark3 train.

[jollyburger]

The last earthquake only had the line stopped due to the intrusion detector and no mention of any secondary monitoring system at OMC.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2428024/guidew...ays-earthquake-behind-skytrain-shutdown/

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

The last earthquake only had the line stopped due to the intrusion detector and no mention of any secondary monitoring system at OMC.

http://globalnews.ca/news/2428024/guidew...ays-earthquake-behind-skytrain-shutdown/

The earthquake set off the intrusion sensors on the Expo Line (since they're vibration/weight-based) but after they got all of that cleared up, the control operators were ordered to stop all service until staff could do a full visual sweep of the guideway for any damage.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by dpogue

The earthquake set off the intrusion sensors on the Expo Line (since they're vibration/weight-based) but after they got all of that cleared up, the control operators were ordered to stop all service until staff could do a full visual sweep of the guideway for any damage.

Imo pretty concerning, when the big one hits I imagine being on the Skytrain might be one of the worst possible places, is we get a M9 on Cascadia or a M7 under Vancouver you can bet on the train derailing and if it has much speed possibly going off he guideway. I'm not really sure whether it's connected or not but if it isn't then that should really be a priority

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by flipper316

who really cares what colour the transit vehicles are. As long as they are safe, frequent, reliable and affordable. Don't think the average joe schmo gives a damn as long as transit provides those 4 services.

I was just reading a chapter in Happy City about Bogota's TransMilenio rapid bus system that really applies here:

The TransMilenio system's director told me later that Peñalosa had insisted on choosing the lipstick-red paint color and even the name for the rapid bus system. Both were supposed to imbue the bus with a hip, modern cachet, so that riders would feel that taking public transit was a high-status experience, even if they had no other choice.

Livery is an easy and cheap way to make public transit feel less of a "loser cruiser" and more of a great alternative to driving. Everybody was happy that the MkIII SkyTrain cars had large windows, even though windows do absolutely nothing for getting you from point A to point B. They do make the ride more enjoyable though, and the same goes for livery (albeit to a lesser extent).

[Bdawe]

I'd kinda like Translink to paint up a set in a BC Electric livery, for funsies.