Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Reecemartin]

I think peoples fears of 104 being reduced to one lane in each directions are somewhat excessive, much bigger cities than Surrey with more highly used roads than 104th have reduced road widths for BRT/LRT/Bike Lanes and they have been fine.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

There's been near 0 movement to build the 105th Ave connector or widen 100th in the past 2 years and now there's a push to put shovels in the ground.


Idiots.

There's this (admittedly only from 140th to 148th - the section that really needs work)

Originally Posted by Shift

Major upgrade of 100 Ave between Surrey City Centre and Guildford to begin this month.

Widening to 4 lanes, grade-separated bike paths, new street lighting, new signalized intersections, improved access to Green Timbers Park.

https://urbansurrey.com/2017/02/07/major-upgrade-of-100-avenue-to-begin-this-month/

[Reecemartin]

One thing I wonder is how the Expo Line will look after an extension to Langley, Id imagine they would remove the branch to Production Way? Would certainly be interesting if we ended up with a forth "shuttle" line running from Columbia to Production.

Another point to bring up, once the Millenium Line is extended and the Expo Line Extension to Langley becomes inevitable, where do we expect new yards to be placed. I imagine the new one on the Evergreen Line could be expanded? I feel like potentially a having Surrey or Langley would be good especially as a backup in the case of a major earthquake in which the older sections of the Expo Line could sustain some serious damage.

[Metro-One]

One thing that always comes to my mind is that it is amazing how large of an area our system can potentially cover with only three lines... (yes, they do have branches at the ends, but the point still stands).

Besides the proposed Surrey L-Line (and going with the logical expectation that the Langley extension will be sky train Expo Line) will we ever see an entirely new line in Vancouver's metro system?

I was thinking of building a line that would run under Hastings, with one branch crossing the Burrard Inlet (maybe splitting just east of Main, built together with a combined rail / road bridge that would replace the Lions Gate) and then running back west along the North Shore. I then realized that even this would likely be built as an extension of the Expo Line (unless it continued west of Waterfront to terminate at Denman and Davie).

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

One thing that always comes to my mind is that it is amazing how large of an area our system can potentially cover with only three lines... (yes, they do have branches at the ends, but the point still stands).

Besides the proposed Surrey L-Line (and going with the logical expectation that the Langley extension will be sky train Expo Line) will we ever see an entirely new line in Vancouver's metro system?

I was thinking of building a line that would run under Hastings, with one branch crossing the Burrard Inlet (maybe splitting just east of Main, built together with a combined rail / road bridge that would replace the Lions Gate) and then running back west along the North Shore. I then realized that even this would likely be built as an extension of the Expo Line (unless it continued west of Waterfront to terminate at Denman and Davie).

New lines will be absolutely necessitated to relieve the Expo and Canada Lines once they have been fully built out. That being said if we have a good system of LRT's BRT's and buses feeding the main metro lines we can cover the entire region very well, in fact if we proliferate BRT the whole region could be within 20 minutes of RT in only 10 or so years.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

One thing I wonder is how the Expo Line will look after an extension to Langley, Id imagine they would remove the branch to Production Way? Would certainly be interesting if we ended up with a forth "shuttle" line running from Columbia to Production.

Another point to bring up, once the Millenium Line is extended and the Expo Line Extension to Langley becomes inevitable, where do we expect new yards to be placed. I imagine the new one on the Evergreen Line could be expanded? I feel like potentially a having Surrey or Langley would be good especially as a backup in the case of a major earthquake in which the older sections of the Expo Line could sustain some serious damage.

We wouldn't necessarily have to get rid of the spur. The destinations could alternate King George-Production Way-King George-Langley.

It might be a little confusing, but if they improve signage at stations to match the Canada and Evergreen Lines, I don't think it would be too difficult for people to figure out.

Originally Posted by Metro-One

One thing that always comes to my mind is that it is amazing how large of an area our system can potentially cover with only three lines... (yes, they do have branches at the ends, but the point still stands).

Besides the proposed Surrey L-Line (and going with the logical expectation that the Langley extension will be sky train Expo Line) will we ever see an entirely new line in Vancouver's metro system?

I was thinking of building a line that would run under Hastings, with one branch crossing the Burrard Inlet (maybe splitting just east of Main, built together with a combined rail / road bridge that would replace the Lions Gate) and then running back west along the North Shore. I then realized that even this would likely be built as an extension of the Expo Line (unless it continued west of Waterfront to terminate at Denman and Davie).

Depends how far into the future you're looking. A 41st Avenue line, a Marine Drive North Shore line, a Hastings Line, a Willingdon Line and maybe even a 200 Street line could all be within the realm of possibility looking ahead a few hundred years

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

We wouldn't necessarily have to get rid of the spur. The destinations could alternate King George-Production Way-King George-Langley.

It might be a little confusing, but if they improve signage at stations to match the Canada and Evergreen Lines, I don't think it would be too difficult for people to figure out.



Depends how far into the future you're looking. A 41st Avenue line, a Marine Drive North Shore line, a Hastings Line, a Willingdon Line and maybe even a 200 Street line could all be within the realm of possibility looking ahead a few hundred years

Screw that, we'd have a commuter rail to Hope, Whistler, and Langdale, along with HSR crossing North America, and Skytrain to Abbosford and Mission by 2100...

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

We wouldn't necessarily have to get rid of the spur. The destinations could alternate King George-Production Way-King George-Langley.

It might be a little confusing, but if they improve signage at stations to match the Canada and Evergreen Lines, I don't think it would be too difficult for people to figure out.



Depends how far into the future you're looking. A 41st Avenue line, a Marine Drive North Shore line, a Hastings Line, a Willingdon Line and maybe even a 200 Street line could all be within the realm of possibility looking ahead a few hundred years

I meant getting rid of the spur because that would reduce frequencies on the leg to Langley which would presumably be carrying far more riders at that point.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I meant getting rid of the spur because that would reduce frequencies on the leg to Langley which would presumably be carrying far more riders at that point.

I'm just not sure that it would be carrying more riders. If capacity to Langley would be a concern, they could just stop short-turning trains at King George (as seems to be the plan at the moment, if SkyTrain is extended).

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

I meant getting rid of the spur because that would reduce frequencies on the leg to Langley which would presumably be carrying far more riders at that point.

They would not, and have no reason to do that, as there are two stops (Sapperton and Braid) on that part of the Skytrain network.

The most likely thing to happen is the Surrey side gets a few short-turned trains (or a few two-car trains at higher frequency) to make up the capacity difference if capacity dictates having that many trains between Columbia and Langley. There is a switch at Scott Road that would let them do this. Then people people who are heading to Vancouver, at most wait one train.

Really the only issue is the Switching capacity at Columbia, which it and Edmonds are notorious for getting stuck and the trains getting short turned back.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

In Toronto there has been significant opposition to going from two to one person subway operation on line 4, Unions are staunchly against automation of line which very well could be automated.

Funny how the opponents of OPTO in Toronto seem to forget that Scarboro RT has been OPTO since it opened in the mid-eighties.
Before Vancouver's Expo line.

And the Scarboro RT was designed to be fully-automated (like Vancouver), but the unions insisted on a human at the controls - to push the "close the doors and go" button at every station. The rest of the train operation is automatic until it opens the doors at the next station.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Funny how the opponents of OPTO in Toronto seem to forget that Scarboro RT has been OPTO since it opened in the mid-eighties.
Before Vancouver's Expo line.

And the Scarboro RT was designed to be fully-automated (like Vancouver), but the unions insisted on a human at the controls - to push the "close the doors and go" button at every station. The rest of the train operation is automatic until it opens the doors at the next station.

Take me out to dinner and screw me. How much do they get paid? Is their job easier or harder than the greencoats who hang out on the Canada Line?

Don't get me wrong. If the job is higher paying than my current one and I get to do barely any work, I'll gladly accept it.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

And the Scarboro RT was designed to be fully-automated (like Vancouver), but the unions insisted on a human at the controls - to push the "close the doors and go" button at every station. The rest of the train operation is automatic until it opens the doors at the next station.

I actually think that the original decision was just fine. So, Toronto did not want to have the first fully-driverless system in the world. Vancouver took that distinction instead. Like it or not, the technology at the time was indeed unproven - the concerns of safety may have been legitimate enough given there would be no idea what to do if there is a problem. We were the ones that ended up learning how to deal with it for everyone else.

What gets me about Toronto is that now that fully-driverless operation has been around for 30 years and IS proven - and not just in Canada but in so many other places around the world - Toronto is still not willing to change. They are making slow progress just eliminating a conductor position on its two-man subway, and the RT still has the on-board attendant. This despite the TTC having gone through everything from service cuts (esp. after the 2008 recession) to leaving issues like over-capacity on routes and poor on-time reliability/frequent short-turns unfixed. Whereas here in Vancouver there is a cry to ensure TransLink is all things efficient and provides the most service possible with limited taxpayer funds, my impression is that it is relatively lacking out there in Toronto.

I'm just stunned that anyone is still looking to Toronto for transit planning examples these days. In my view, the decision to exclude the option of refurbishing the Scarborough RT for newer trains/better service - at the lowest cost & lowest construction impact of all the Scarborough alternatives - should be the ultimate blow to their credibility as a city that is said to plan transit practically.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I actually think that the original decision was just fine. So, Toronto did not want to have the first fully-driverless system in the world. Vancouver took that distinction instead. Like it or not, the technology at the time was indeed unproven - the concerns of safety may have been legitimate enough given there would be no idea what to do if there is a problem. We were the ones that ended up learning how to deal with it for everyone else.

What gets me about Toronto is that now that fully-driverless operation has been around for 30 years and IS proven - and not just in Canada but in so many other places around the world - Toronto is still not willing to change. They are making slow progress just eliminating a conductor position on its two-man subway, and the RT still has the on-board attendant. This despite the TTC having gone through everything from service cuts (esp. after the 2008 recession) to leaving issues like over-capacity on routes and poor on-time reliability/frequent short-turns unfixed. Whereas here in Vancouver there is a cry to ensure TransLink is all things efficient and provides the most service possible with limited taxpayer funds, my impression is that it is relatively lacking out there in Toronto.

I'm just stunned that anyone is still looking to Toronto for transit planning examples these days. In my view, the decision to exclude the option of refurbishing the Scarborough RT for newer trains/better service - at the lowest cost & lowest construction impact of all the Scarborough alternatives - should be the ultimate blow to their credibility as a city that is said to plan transit practically.

While the city itself has proven completely useless in getting transit built, Metrolinx and the government of Ontario are making massive strides with plans to open 5 new Lrt's as well as electrify and turn GO into RER within the next 10 years.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I actually think that the original decision was just fine. So, Toronto did not want to have the first fully-driverless system in the world. Vancouver took that distinction instead. Like it or not, the technology at the time was indeed unproven - the concerns of safety may have been legitimate enough given there would be no idea what to do if there is a problem. We were the ones that ended up learning how to deal with it for everyone else.

What gets me about Toronto is that now that fully-driverless operation has been around for 30 years and IS proven - and not just in Canada but in so many other places around the world - Toronto is still not willing to change. They are making slow progress just eliminating a conductor position on its two-man subway, and the RT still has the on-board attendant. This despite the TTC having gone through everything from service cuts (esp. after the 2008 recession) to leaving issues like over-capacity on routes and poor on-time reliability/frequent short-turns unfixed. Whereas here in Vancouver there is a cry to ensure TransLink is all things efficient and provides the most service possible with limited taxpayer funds, my impression is that it is relatively lacking out there in Toronto.

I'm just stunned that anyone is still looking to Toronto for transit planning examples these days. In my view, the decision to exclude the option of refurbishing the Scarborough RT for newer trains/better service - at the lowest cost & lowest construction impact of all the Scarborough alternatives - should be the ultimate blow to their credibility as a city that is said to plan transit practically.

They won't go fully automated due to the strong unions here.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They won't go fully automated due to the strong unions here.

You can only fight technology and professional for so long, and time is running out.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

You can only fight technology and professional for so long, and time is running out.

Not with the TTC. There would be an uproar if they were to go fully automated without an attendant like the Skytrain does.

[Reecemartin]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Not with the TTC. There would be an uproar if they were to go fully automated without an attendant like the Skytrain does.

Well technically that's very much the direction the TTC is moving in with one man operation on every line in the next couple of years as well as ATO and they also are getting rid of collector booths ( the new line 1 extension doesn't even have them).

As far as Toronto gos it's alot easier to understand why they might have collectors than in Vancouver. And while they could go driverless, the TTC carries significantly more riders per train (TTC subway trains are actually massive compared to even Mark 3's : they are like a metre wider and twice as long) that allows them to somewhat better justify operators vs something like the SRT.

[officedweller]

A Canada Line car is about the same width as a TTC Subway car.
3.0 m vs 3.1 m

MKIIs and IIIs are 2.6 m wide

[Reecemartin]

Ah indeed, I was referring to expo line trains, so they are still half a metre narrower.

Curious to know why Translink didn't order 5 car mark 3 trainsets?