Third Harbour Crossing

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Colin May

Let us assume a new bridge can be built for $500 million.
Financed with 30 year bond at 3% and with annual sinking fund.
Annual payments would be $25 million and debt free after 30 years.

In 2015/16 HHBC Toll revenue was $31 million

I think that's way too low a cost estimate for a new bridge.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I think that's way too low a cost estimate for a new bridge.

Might be reasonable to do a new bridge for $500 million.

The Big Lift project is $200 million. Yes it's keeping many of the existing elements, but they're not doing that for cost reasons, but because there's no other option if they want to keep the bridge open during the renos. I was at a presentation with the head engineer and he said when they do the McKay they'll probably just build a new bridge next to the existing if there's room, because it's way easier and ends up costing the same as taking the Big Lift-type approach.

So figure a new McKay would cost in the vicinity of $200 million + whatever it takes to add the extra lane the McKay has. But that's with the advantage of having existing land and infrastructure at either end. A third bridge would need to acquire land, do grading, build tolls, etc. etc.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Might be reasonable to do a new bridge for $500 million.

The Big Lift project is $200 million. Yes it's keeping many of the existing elements, but they're not doing that for cost reasons, but because there's no other option if they want to keep the bridge open during the renos. I was at a presentation with the head engineer and he said when they do the McKay they'll probably just build a new bridge next to the existing if there's room, because it's way easier and ends up costing the same as taking the Big Lift-type approach.

So figure a new McKay would cost in the vicinity of $200 million + whatever it takes to add the extra lane the McKay has. But that's with the advantage of having existing land and infrastructure at either end. A third bridge would need to acquire land, do grading, build tolls, etc. etc.

Very interesting.

I wonder if they would make the new MacKay bridge as 5 or 6 lanes, and certainly they should make it higher clearance (190 feet as opposed to the current 150 feet), just in case the MacDonald bridge is replaced in the coming decades.

If they build a new MacKay bridge next to the current one, then they would not have to rebuild the toll plaza's and road network so maybe it could be done in the $500 million dollar vicinity (in today's dollars that is, by the time it is built then inflation will make the cost even higher).

[kwajo]

There is no way a new crossing would only cost $500 million, between engineering, environmental, land on both sides, road connections, tolls booths, not to mention the actual construction. I think you're looking at at least $2 billion by the time they actually get around to it. Just look at what other large bridges have cost recently in Canada, the Port Mann Bridge cost $820 million for the bridge alone (not including highway/road upgrades to link it), and the estimated cost of the George Massey Tunnel's replacement bridge is $3.5 billion. Early estimates for the third crossing [conceived almost ten years ago] were over $1.1 billion and construction costs have gone up a lot since then.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by kwajo

There is no way a new crossing would only cost $500 million, between engineering, environmental, land on both sides, road connections, tolls booths, not to mention the actual construction. I think you're looking at at least $2 billion by the time they actually get around to it. Just look at what other large bridges have cost recently in Canada, the Port Mann Bridge cost $820 million for the bridge alone (not including highway/road upgrades to link it), and the estimated cost of the George Massey Tunnel's replacement bridge is $3.5 billion. Early estimates for the third crossing [conceived almost ten years ago] were over $1.1 billion and construction costs have gone up a lot since then.

We were referring to a replacement to the MacKay bridge where all of the roads already exist. You are thinking of a south end bridge where none of the infrastructure exists.

The Port Mann bridge is 10 lanes.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

The Port Mann bridge is 10 lanes.

Now you're talking! Let's go for 12.

[musicman]

Every Estimated cost per square foot for a suspension bridge of this type is over 250000000 just for the decking... This does not include towers, cables, any land aquisisions ect... By the time a twin to the mckay is built it is a 750000000 build easily.. They will build a twin to it not a new 8 lane or 6 lane...

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Now you're talking! Let's go for 12.

Hopefully they will go for a majestic, big-league bridge (to use a Trumpism).

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by musicman

By the time a twin to the mckay is built it is a 750000000 million build easily...

A replacement to the McKay will be $750 TRILLION??? Jeeze, inflation is a b**ch.

[Phalanx]

Just for fun, I did a quick comparison to The Western Harbour Tunnel in Hong Kong (~2km, 6 lane, submerged tube tunnel built between 1993 and 1997. Quickest/easiest/most recent harbour crossing). It cost $5.7b HKD to construct (total project cost was $7b HKD). So allowing for conversion and inflation (using 1993 as the starting point), that'd be $1.4b (and $1.7b respectively) in modern CAD. Allowing that the Western Harbour Tunnel is almost twice as long as the width of Halifax harbour, I'm guessing it would cost about $700m-1b for a tunnel across the harbour.

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

We were referring to a replacement to the MacKay bridge where all of the roads already exist. You are thinking of a south end bridge where none of the infrastructure exists.

The Port Mann bridge is 10 lanes.

My mistake, sometimes the tangents in thread topics get lost. Even with the roads in place, I still stand by the assertion that it would be impossible to build an entire bridge of that scale for any less than a billion by the time it comes around, at least given my experience with road construction (I'll admit, I've not been involved in any large bridges however).

I'm aware that Port Mann is 10 lanes, it was meant to be an example of a very recent bridge cost.

[musicman]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

A replacement to the McKay will be $750 TRILLION??? Jeeze, inflation is a b**ch.

Count the zeros 750 million. 7 zeros equal million not trillion.. You jumped over billion by the way...

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by musicman

Count the zeros 750 million. 7 zeros equal million not trillion.. You jumped over billion by the way...

You've edited your post. Originally it was, "750000000 million", which would indeed be 750 trillion. I figured it was a typo; I was making a joke about it.

[Keith P.]

No worries. Gary Burrill, Denise Petersen-Rafuse and other members of the 3rd party are on their hind legs in the Leg as I write this extolling the virtues of deficit financing to enable spending beyond our means. So I'm sure if elected they will build a third crossing plus an Arm Bridge, twin all 100-series highways, and build hospitals in every community of more than 2000 souls.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No worries. Gary Burrill, Denise Petersen-Rafuse and other members of the 3rd party are on their hind legs in the Leg as I write this extolling the virtues of deficit financing to enable spending beyond our means. So I'm sure if elected they will build a third crossing plus an Arm Bridge, twin all 100-series highways, and build hospitals in every community of more than 2000 souls.

They sound like intelligent people if they will push for a Northwest Arm bridge.

[pblaauw]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No worries. Gary Burrill, Denise Petersen-Rafuse and other members of the 3rd party are on their hind legs in the Leg as I write this extolling the virtues of deficit financing to enable spending beyond our means. So I'm sure if elected they will build a third crossing plus an Arm Bridge, twin all 100-series highways, and build hospitals in every community of more than 2000 souls.

You could build a bridge straight from Woodside to Purcell's Cove, with an off ramp at Point Pleasant Park, straight down Young Ave. Brilliant.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by pblaauw

You could build a bridge straight from Woodside to Purcell's Cove, with an off ramp at Point Pleasant Park, straight down Young Ave. Brilliant.

An excellent idea.

[worldlyhaligonian]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

They sound like intelligent people if they will push for a Northwest Arm bridge.

Why? There is hardly any population south of the rotary in comparison to north of the rotary. A Northwest Arm bridge would serve one of the least densely populated areas in Halifax. Why do you think this is a problem when the choke points are mostly to do with traffic coming from the other directions.

I'd rather see a small section of LRT from Clayton Park / Fairview to the West End.

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Why? There is hardly any population south of the rotary in comparison to north of the rotary. A Northwest Arm bridge would serve one of the least densely populated areas in Halifax. Why do you think this is a problem when the choke points are mostly to do with traffic coming from the other directions.

I'd rather see a small section of LRT from Clayton Park / Fairview to the West End.

There is a large number of people who work south of the the Armdale Rotary, roughly anybody from Sackville St south so the use of access to and from the peninsula on the south end would be a great relief to commuters. Once on the mainland side freeways would take them to wherever they desired.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

Why? There is hardly any population south of the rotary in comparison to north of the rotary. A Northwest Arm bridge would serve one of the least densely populated areas in Halifax. Why do you think this is a problem when the choke points are mostly to do with traffic coming from the other directions.

I'd rather see a small section of LRT from Clayton Park / Fairview to the West End.

Why is it better for people to have to travel through the peninsula and rotary to get to the north mainland? Even if the south mainland is difficult to develop, traffic can still be routed through the south mainland.

A Northwest Arm bridge would also get Halterm trucks out of downtown Halifax. If you google Northwest Arm Drive you will see that a Northwest Arm Drive was planned decades ago.