The future of Ottawa's Transit

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Yea, we're getting there..

We don't want competing rail lines, do we?

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Yea, we're getting there..

OK, so we've only got one noodle to their bowl of ramen. But it's a brand new shiny noodle :-)

[Kitchissippi]

Not quite brand new, that's the Trillium line, they just have the colour wrong.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Although that metric may penalize cities which are more compact since they require fewer kms of rail vs cities which are more spread out.

True, but Metro and Light Rail are significantly more viable in cities with high population densities. The economics for a large system aren't there for a sprawling city.

A more informative (but much more complicated) metric might be the percentage of the population within x km of heavy rail.

By heavy rail I assume you mean "Metro and Light Rail" (the name used in the original link). Not saying you are wrong (there is no official naming standard), I'm just trying to avoid confusion by not changing the names used.

[Aylmer]

You're right, sorry - I'm thinking of higher-order transit, so everything from B-RoW LRT (think Kitchener-Waterloo) and A-RoW BRT (Transitway) to a full metro system (ex: Montreal) or heavy rail with metro-like frequencies (ex: RER). Essentially anything more than a bus lane. But let's not get too far into the terminology because that's an SSP black hole

As for sprawling cities, there are a number of them which still employ LRT. Especially in the US, think of Denver, Houston or Dallas. The latter has a single line spanning 44km, mostly in very low-density suburbs. Or you can think of some interurban trams like in Karlsruhe (pop: 300k), with over 570km of track (one of its lines stretches over 150km). Although that's certainly very impressive, a lot of those kilometres run through farmer's fields to get to population nodes.

[swimmer_spe]

What if the Transitways were also taken into consideration. They are rapid, and they do not intermingle with traffic.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

What if the Transitways were also taken into consideration. They are rapid, and they do not intermingle with traffic.

Most do, however. Ottawa's transitway is at grade downtown. There is virtually no real brt anywhere.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

As for sprawling cities, there are a number of them which still employ LRT.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be imply that it can't be done, just that it isn't as cost effective to have a large network of interconnected lines in a sprawling city. Most of the time they end up with one line through the city core that splits to multiple destinations. This limits the maximum frequency on each of the spurs.

Especially in the US, think of Denver, Houston or Dallas. The latter has a single line spanning 44km, mostly in very low-density suburbs.

For reference, here are the populations of those cities' metropolitan regions

• Denver 2,814,330
• Houston 6,313,158
• Dallas 7,102,796

They are all significantly larger than Ottawa/Gatineau.

Or you can think of some interurban trams like in Karlsruhe (pop: 300k), with over 570km of track (one of its lines stretches over 150km). Although that's certainly very impressive, a lot of those kilometres run through farmer's fields to get to population nodes.

Interurban trams are a different story. In Karlsruhe, their trams have been operating since 1877 ref. In Ottawa, we decided to tear our tram lines up in favour of buses.

Interestingly Karlsruhe started digging a tunnel for their trams in 2010 and it is expected to open this year.

Also, the population quoted is for the city of Karlsruhe. The Karlsruhe region has a population of 2,761,977 ref (though I don't know if that is comparable to a metropolitan region either).

[Athens]

I just did some back of the napkin math for a potential Rideau-Montreal LRT. The route from the Rideau Centre to St Laurent Shopping Centre is about 6.6 kilometers. Using some costing found online, a subterranean LRT system is about $250 million per km. So a Rideau-Montreal LRT would cost about $1.65 billion using these numbers. I'm curious if one of the Ontario opposition parties would be willing to fund something like this to steal away some votes from the Liberals. Of course, that is if the Liberals have any votes to be stolen

[1overcosc]

It's also a very large sum to be spent on one riding.

Keep in mind though that such a route could easily be above-ground in the eastern section.

[acottawa]

I think one thing we learned in the recent by-election is that people in Ottawa-Vanier will vote Liberal no matter what.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Keep in mind though that such a route could easily be above-ground in the eastern section.

Agreed. East of de l'Église St it could run along the surface, though it may be desirable to keep it underground past St. Laurent to avoid the traffic light. To the west, a tunnel would be necessary as the road is too narrow and the buildings are too close to the road.

[Aylmer]

Yeah, you could reduce the tunnel to 3.5km and run the rest in exclusive lanes. The savings combined with a bit more money would get us a 5.5 km Bank St tunnel from Hull to Billings!

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

The savings combined with a bit more money would get us a 5.5 km Bank St tunnel from Hull to Billings!

Using the north/south combined sewage tunnel?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Yeah, you could reduce the tunnel to 3.5km and run the rest in exclusive lanes. The savings combined with a bit more money would get us a 5.5 km Bank St tunnel from Hull to Billings!

Don't forget that you have to go under the 100 feet of sawdust sludge in the bottom of the Ottawa River.

[acottawa]

2 billion-ish seems like a lot to spend to replace 1-2 local bus routes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by acottawa

2 billion-ish seems like a lot to spend to replace 1-2 local bus routes.

Up and down Bank? Those buses can take forever most days, especially at peak hours.

As far as i'm concerned a Bank Street subway from Hull to Billings connecting with Confederation should be the next addition to LRT, if anything.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Up and down Bank? Those buses can take forever most days, especially at peak hours.

As far as i'm concerned a Bank Street subway from Hull to Billings connecting with Confederation should be the next addition to LRT, if anything.

Lots of buses take "forever" - I'm not clear why bank street qualifies for special snowflake status.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Lots of buses take "forever" - I'm not clear why bank street qualifies for special snowflake status.

Because those users are special snowflakes.

[Aylmer]

I though we were all special snowflakes...

But on a more serious note, I think that a Hull-Ottawa connection under the river would transform the downtown-to-downtown dynamic, tying them much, much closer together. As it is, it's too far to walk, too close to drive and the bus service between the two is too unreliable for the distance (no one wants to wait 10 minutes for a 5 minute ride).