PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[summersm343]

Philadelphia Auto Show hits highest attendance in over a decade

A record number of visitors pulled up to this year's Philadelphia Auto Show, which crossed the finish line with its highest attendance in over a decade.

About 253,191 people attended this year's show, which spanned across a 700,000-square-foot display floor at the Pennsylvania Convention Center, generating about $50 million in economic impact.

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/...to-show-highest-attendance-tailgate.html

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Very big for Philadelphia! This could very well draw other companies into this area. I am willing to bet this will just be the first of Vanguard's investment in Philadelphia. More jobs will follow from them.



Close to 30th Street Station for sure, and everybody I have talked to is stating this is just a temporary space for Vanguard to get their feet wet. They'll eventually move into some larger, more trophy like space along West Market or Schuylkill Yards. There will eventually be more jobs coming to Philadelphia from Vanguard.



And Jacobs architecture.



Yes, more will certainly come to the area. A coffee space is opening on the ground floor of 2116 Chestnut. There is still another empty space there that could hold a restaurant. Also, the 2200 block of Walnut has some retail vacancies that are just starting to fill in. 2400 Market will bring some retail options as well.

All of the blocks before the River are starting to fill in with commercial and residential. Astoban is doing a 4 story addition at 2207 Chestnut (scroll down in link)

http://astoban.com/property/

All of this is very good.

By the way, what coffee space at 2116 Chestnut? In addition to and separate from Saige, which seems to be stalled? No work for some time. Or is the coffee place you are talking about Saige.

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

Yet we are below 1970s job levels right? In nearly 50 years we've lost jobs - that's like...incredible, even with the growth over the past few years.

Philly will be an education and medical center - finance will remain mediocre because of the high taxes and proximity of NYC's capability to take top talent, as well as a massively deeper investor pool to raise money from. It's an international city, plain and simple. DE is also a huge suck on finance from the city due to corporate tax laws. It's why JP Morgan alone has 10-15k back office jobs just over the border in Wilmington & Newark. Those jobs pay $60k entry up to a couple $100k for senior positions. Trends I've personally witnessed were entry level kids living in the city, hitting their 30s with a higher paycheck, then moving closer to their job and exiting the city for good because they just can't take the commute anymore.

This whole thing city vs. burbs is pointless. Who cares what people think in the deep parts of the state - the ones that are eating your lunch are the mega-wealthy educated people living just over the border so they don't get a 4% pay deduction. The city budget is a black hole unfortunately with many more regressive taxes just over the horizon. If you think that the majority of people who are wealthy and highly educated won't flee that then you're in denial - it's literally been happening for decades. You can see an EXTREME drop off in population in the 30-50 age range, which are PRIME earnings years. Personally speaking I don't blame them in the slightest, how could you? It's how the free market works. If people don't like something - they'll leave. It's so easy to get in and out of the city. I love philly - but if you look at the situation in a vacuum from a purely financial viewpoint it's a no brainer to flee for the immediate surrounding burbs. Very easy to grab a room for the night and $35 uber ride when you want a night out. Everyone values things differently.
If you are single and go out regularly, yea it's probably not beneficial to move to the burbs. If you are shacked up with a husband/wife and a couple kids and don't want to pay exhobitant private school tuition along with high taxes and find yourself only going out 1 night every few weeks then yea it's way more beneficial to be in the burbs and locate near a train station for easy access.

What absolutely worries me the most about Philly is the millennials. The largest generation in US history is approaching their 30s, which just so happens to be the age people statistically leave cities. On top of that the majority of the philly inflow of millennials over the past few years grew up in the philly burbs. These are kids who grew up with backyards, bike trails, hide and go seek, etc. - not traditional city folks, so they're already biased. If and when that generation moves into their 30s, and the bulk of that group should be 5-7 years from now, are they going to want the same things for their kids? Sure they'll buy their first home here, but their second? I don't know the answer to that, but it scares the begeesus out of me. Furthermore if they do move out, the type of job growth the city needs to sustain that loss is no where near optimal output. The city can effectively offset that migration if they grow jobs here and bring in immigrants and people from all over the country to fill those positions - right now that's not happening at the velocity that needs to occur to offset the potential risk of a 30yr old's potential exodus.

As a millennial with a family, I just want to provide my two cents. I grew up in the country (with the bike trails and large yard you mention) and my wife the suburbs (ick). Growing up I spent a lot of time around Ithaca, the finger lakes and the Adirondacks. Beautiful places. The thought of leaving the city makes us ill. Sure all that stuff is nice (except the lawn, the lawn I’d give up in a second), but we have some pretty amazing cultural institutions that I didn’t have access to growing up. Also, the park system is great, there are tons of restaurants (even if we don’t get out that much), shopping and events (the holidays are a lot of fun in the city, especially with a kid). We still have access to nature, just in an urban setting. That kind of makes it more interesting in my opinion. Also, if we really want to go to a more natural/expansive region, then we can drive there. The same process we’d probably need to go through if we lived in a suburban or rural setting.

While jobs are definitely important, a lot of families we know living in the city (also Millennials) already have decent-paying reliable jobs. As long as the Philadelphia region is able to continue its job growth at a reasonable rate and able to absorb the people moving into the city, then I don’t think that’s really an issue. If the city has lost jobs when compared to the distant past, then it has also lost population. The main thing seems to be that both continue to grow in moderation. Downtown jobs are definitely preferred (being able to walk to work is amazing), but even reverse commuting is acceptable provided that the office is accessible by train. Millennials for the most part don’t really value driving that much. I personally hate it.

I think the top things Millennials in the city are concerned about, when you throw children into the mix, is the state of education and also safety. We have discussed the suburbs in relation to the education issue (which is really are largest concern right now), but our desire to stay in a vibrant and diverse urban environment is winning the argument. Even if we opt to send our child to a private or parochial school in a couple years, paying the tuition doesn’t seem too big of a deal if we are able to afford it. Of course we hope the Philly public schools improve (I know some of the top-rated public schools in the country are in the city), but it’s fairly difficult getting into the really good ones and I don’t know that the rest will be improved enough by the time we would need them. We’re still watching that closely.

The city has made a lot of improvement regarding crime over the last decade and for the most part we feel very safe. However, there are a lot of drug dealers in our neighborhood (something we care much more about now that we have a child) and from time to time there are shootings (this is very uncommon, but it happened that there were 3 yesterday in our neighborhood, all drug related). I don’t know what can be done about this though; it’s hard to accept that crime is just a part of city living, since there are many cities in Europe, Asia, Australia, Canada and I’m sure elsewhere with much lower crime rates. For whatever reasons, cities in the US tend to have higher crime rates.

As far as our 2nd house, I’d definitely buy in Philly again or even build up. I can also say that most Millennials I know also don’t value huge houses that much and are more about efficiency/practicality and are fine with a home on the smaller side (we’ve got a two br/1 bath that is so far working fine). Things that would force us out of the city would be if all hell breaks loose/a reverse in Philadelphia’s upward trend. I think that Philadelphia will retain a lot of its Millennial population though.

[relnahe]

I find it funny how no one figures people younger than the Millennials will eventually replace the void of Millennials.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

Of course we hope the Philly public schools improve (I know some of the top-rated public schools in the country are in the city), but it’s fairly difficult getting into the really good ones and I don’t know that the rest will be improved enough by the time we would need them. We’re still watching that closely.

The ONLY thing that will help to improve your local elementary school is YOUR involvement.

That means, not just "watching them closely".

I'm not even sure what that means. Like. If you watch it very intently, it will?



XOXO
3rd&Brown

[Skintreesnail]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

The ONLY thing that will help to improve your local elementary school is YOUR involvement.

That means, not just "watching them closely".

I'm not even sure what that means. Like. If you watch it very intently, it will?



XOXO
3rd&Brown

You're correct, and we are involved with the local "Friends of" group. In addition to participation, we will continue to watch.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

The ONLY thing that will help to improve your local elementary school is YOUR involvement.

That means, not just "watching them closely".

I'm not even sure what that means. Like. If you watch it very intently, it will?



XOXO
3rd&Brown

I think he was making the point that he will watch the condition of the school so that when the time comes to make a decision to enroll, he will know if it’s improved sufficiently to meet his standards. Were you suggesting to involve yourself with the school before you even have kids? if so, that's hardcore dedication!

As a Gen-Xer who stayed in CC post kids, my experience is that more people leave than stay after kids. The other thing I have observed is that many people who talk a big game about staying in the City after kids, change their tune in the end. I think the draw of more indoor space (extra bedrooms, family room, game room, etc.), large and private outdoor space, becomes a huge draw for young families. I appreciate Summers displaying his commitment and I don’t doubt his sincerity but if the wife starts with the “I can’t live this way” business, good luck digging in your heels.

All that being said, I think enough are staying that we are seeing the benefit in the improvement of schools and the financial health of the city.

Lastly, I see this point made quote a bit here and in other places, “Well just move to the burbs and then it’s still easy to get into the City with a train or Uber or get a hotel room.” Having a bar or restaurant a short walk away is certainly a perk of living here but that isn’t even remotely what keeps me here. It is a total lifestyle that one adopts. There is such a synergy between the people and the environment. Just walking a few blocks takes you through an 18th century wonderland. Me and my family are part of that fabric and it is part of us – we consume it and it consumes us. I guess that’s the difference between an urbanist and a person who just wants to walk to the bar or be among the hip crowd.

[Redddog]

I'm down with the whole "Millennial is Key" argument. It's super important and Skintreesnail voiced that perspective well.

The one age group that seems to get overlooked is the "Old Bastard" group that I represent. We are empty nesters (early albeit - due to a family tragedy) and couldn't wait to get into the city. We had always envisioned retiring in a city - NYC was the idea. When we discovered Philly, the move happened fast. It's funny. Our priorities are pretty much identical to the Millennial priority list - walkability, vibrancy, cultural diversity, broad range of entertainment options etc. The only difference is that we aren't affected by the school issue. Of course, better schools should be any city's top priority and the #1 deterrent to explosive population growth is the perception of Philly schools (followed closely by the inane city Tax that I have NO confidence will ever improve given the fractured state of the state).

When we had kids in NYC, and later Rochester, NY, we made a commitment to stay and make the city schools work. I had a deeply ingrained disgust for the little-mentioned issues that plague upper-middleclass suburban schools - bully-ism, cliques, acceptance of drug use to name but a few. The old saying "you get out what you put in" applies to the city school experience. And what we have always found was that if you can lead by example and show others tangibly that the relationship between effort and results is intact when it comes to advocating for your children's education, the more others will attempt. And that's when schools change. We see all the time anecdotal evidence that this is happening on a real level here.

This is, perhaps, an oversimplification but the relationship exists. And often, it's far easier to obtain state and city funding for something that is working than for another bureaucratically devised theory that may or may not work again.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by PHL10

The other thing I have observed is that many people who talk a big game about staying in the City after kids, change their tune in the end. I think the draw of more indoor space (extra bedrooms, family room, game room, etc.), large and private outdoor space, becomes a huge draw for young families.

Good perspectives from everyone. I think you're hitting the nail on the head here. People too often conflate the issue and make it about other things like Quality of Life or schools or safety. But to me, it's so often about space.

And this is the same thing that happens in NYC, Boston, DC with millennials as well - this is not unique to PHL. Space is at a premium in cities, and you pay $$ for it. It's all fun and games to have a cute 2br/1bath starter house in Wash West before kids... but once that first one arrives, that house shrinks quickly.

And to buy a 2000sf house with 3-4 bedrooms and 2+ bathrooms in a stable neighborhood is generally really, really expensive. In some 'hoods, over $1million expensive - $$ most millennials don't have access to.

I live in Fitler Square and instead of looking at raising children in the city as some sacrificial burden, my wife and I look at it as a privilege.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Redddog

I'm down with the whole "Millennial is Key" argument. It's super important and Skintreesnail voiced that perspective well.

The one age group that seems to get overlooked is the "Old Bastard" group that I represent. We are empty nesters (early albeit - due to a family tragedy) and couldn't wait to get into the city. We had always envisioned retiring in a city - NYC was the idea. When we discovered Philly, the move happened fast. It's funny. Our priorities are pretty much identical to the Millennial priority list - walkability, vibrancy, cultural diversity, broad range of entertainment options etc. The only difference is that we aren't affected by the school issue. Of course, better schools should be any city's top priority and the #1 deterrent to explosive population growth is the perception of Philly schools (followed closely by the inane city Tax that I have NO confidence will ever improve given the fractured state of the state).

When we had kids in NYC, and later Rochester, NY, we made a commitment to stay and make the city schools work. I had a deeply ingrained disgust for the little-mentioned issues that plague upper-middleclass suburban schools - bully-ism, cliques, acceptance of drug use to name but a few. The old saying "you get out what you put in" applies to the city school experience. And what we have always found was that if you can lead by example and show others tangibly that the relationship between effort and results is intact when it comes to advocating for your children's education, the more others will attempt. And that's when schools change. We see all the time anecdotal evidence that this is happening on a real level here.

This is, perhaps, an oversimplification but the relationship exists. And often, it's far easier to obtain state and city funding for something that is working than for another bureaucratically devised theory that may or may not work again.

It's not overlooked. The boomers and empty nesters are correctly viewed and a target demographic for much of the luxury condos and townhomes going up in Philly.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Good perspectives from everyone. I think you're hitting the nail on the head here. People too often conflate the issue and make it about other things like Quality of Life or schools or safety. But to me, it's so often about space.

And this is the same thing that happens in NYC, Boston, DC with millennials as well - this is not unique to PHL. Space is at a premium in cities, and you pay $$ for it. It's all fun and games to have a cute 2br/1bath starter house in Wash West before kids... but once that first one arrives, that house shrinks quickly.

And to buy a 2000sf house with 3-4 bedrooms and 2+ bathrooms in a stable neighborhood is generally really, really expensive. In some 'hoods, over $1million expensive - $$ most millennials don't have access to.

I live in Fitler Square and instead of looking at raising children in the city as some sacrificial burden, my wife and I look at it as a privilege.

Right, exactly. There are always going to be large segments of the population that move to the suburbs (in every city) during child rearing years simply because you get so much more bang for your buck. The only people I know that have stayed in the city after kid 2 are affluent and can do so comfortable.

[mja]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Right, exactly. There are always going to be large segments of the population that move to the suburbs (in every city) during child rearing years simply because you get so much more bang for your buck. The only people I know that have stayed in the city after kid 2 are affluent and can do so comfortable.

What do you mean by affluent? I know tons of double-income professionals that I would in no way term "affluent" with 2+ kids who elected to stay in the city. In fact, I fit exactly into that category. Mind you, I did well to purchase a loft in 2003 and that's helped me stay in the city, but I'd be in the city regardless, just in less big of a house.

Many do go back to the suburbs but the increase in middle class families with 2+ children who decide to stay in the city is the reason why it's pretty much impossible to get into schools like Penn Alexander, Meredith, Greenfield, & McCall these days if you don't live in those catchments, whereas even 5 years ago that wasn't the case.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Right, exactly. There are always going to be large segments of the population that move to the suburbs (in every city) during child rearing years simply because you get so much more bang for your buck. The only people I know that have stayed in the city after kid 2 are affluent and can do so comfortable.

I'm going to have to totally disagree with you on this one. Now maybe your definition of affluent is totally different than mine, and I suppose you could consider a family making $100,000 or more affluent considering the relatively small percentage of families in America that make that much and the fact that such an income is roughly twice as much as the mean in America. To me though, such an income is still solidly middle class, and I know A LOT of middle class families in Philadelphia who stay here after kids and send their kids to school here.

I also don't think you have to be affluent to have kids in the city and be comfortable. You just have to have the understanding that it is not the same as the suburbs and adjust your expectations. I have a nice sized row house, I could have certainly had more space in the suburbs, but space isn't very important to me.

We're in a nice area and our kids will go to a nice elementary school, though in the suburbs they could have gone to higher rated school. Again though, that's less important to me. Plenty of studies have shown that a good school is not the beginning and end of educational performance. Kids with engaged parents who help their children learn from a young age and assist them in their learning throughout their childhood perform better than students with disengaged parents regardless of how great their school is.

Besides studies also show that students perform better in more diverse classrooms and get to interact more frequently with people of different cultures. Things like having easy access to museums and cultural institutions and historic sites can also have a huge impact on development. All things that the city offers in spades and the soulless suburbs are basically entirely devoid of.

So not only do I disagree that only the affluent are staying to raise their kids in the city. I disagree with your basic premise that the suburbs offer more bang for your buck to young families. That's only true if the only value you're measuring is square footage of living area and rating of your school district, while ignoring all of the positives that the city has to offer.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^ Income is not the same thing as wealth/affluence (said the guy with seven kids).

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I'm going to have to totally disagree with you on this one. Now maybe your definition of affluent is totally different than mine, and I suppose you could consider a family making $100,000 or more affluent considering the relatively small percentage of families in America that make that much and the fact that such an income is roughly twice as much as the mean in America. To me though, such an income is still solidly middle class, and I know A LOT of middle class families in Philadelphia who stay here after kids and send their kids to school here.

I also don't think you have to be affluent to have kids in the city and be comfortable. You just have to have the understanding that it is not the same as the suburbs and adjust your expectations. I have a nice sized row house, I could have certainly had more space in the suburbs, but space isn't very important to me.

We're in a nice area and our kids will go to a nice elementary school, though in the suburbs they could have gone to higher rated school. Again though, that's less important to me. Plenty of studies have shown that a good school is not the beginning and end of educational performance. Kids with engaged parents who help their children learn from a young age and assist them in their learning throughout their childhood perform better than students with disengaged parents regardless of how great their school is.

Besides studies also show that students perform better in more diverse classrooms and get to interact more frequently with people of different cultures. Things like having easy access to museums and cultural institutions and historic sites can also have a huge impact on development. All things that the city offers in spades and the soulless suburbs are basically entirely devoid of.

So not only do I disagree that only the affluent are staying to raise their kids in the city. I disagree with your basic premise that the suburbs offer more bang for your buck to young families. That's only true if the only value you're measuring is square footage of living area and rating of your school district, while ignoring all of the positives that the city has to offer.

Everyone is going to have personal reasons for either city living or suburb living. And, neither is mutually exclusive. The best of both worlds can be had from either locale because we are a mobile society and have the ability to adjust to seek out our desires (e.g., suburb big house/yard vs. city small row home but eating/drinking at your favorite joint that's not a national chain). As a matter of fact, Philly is a pretty easy big city to get into and out of for the things that you think you will benefit from. I for one think the cultural institutions and diversity is plentiful and much more celebrated in the city than the suburbs. The best benefit of city living is being in a neighborhood that has all the amenities within a 3 or 4 block radius you can walk to plus the ability to walk/bike or bus to your job. You can't really get that in the suburbs because most suburbs are car dependent, although I think developers do a poor job trying to develop the "town center" concept. The surrounding suburbs definitely benefit from Philly hands down unless you enjoy a quiet lifestyle of tv watching, big box shopping, or walks in nature, which apparently you can now do in our lovely city.

[jjv007]

I think this discussion has demonstrated that Houston is indeed the ideal city since it offers both city and suburb in one!

[Hrytsyu]

Originally Posted by Skintreesnail

As a millennial with a family, I just want to provide my two cents. I grew up in the country (with the bike trails and large yard you mention) and my wife the suburbs (ick). Growing up I spent a lot of time around Ithaca, the finger lakes and the Adirondacks. Beautiful places. The thought of leaving the city makes us ill. Sure all that stuff is nice (except the lawn, the lawn I’d give up in a second), but we have some pretty amazing cultural institutions that I didn’t have access to growing up. Also, the park system is great, there are tons of restaurants (even if we don’t get out that much), shopping and events (the holidays are a lot of fun in the city, especially with a kid). We still have access to nature, just in an urban setting. That kind of makes it more interesting in my opinion. Also, if we really want to go to a more natural/expansive region, then we can drive there. The same process we’d probably need to go through if we lived in a suburban or rural setting.

While jobs are definitely important, a lot of families we know living in the city (also Millennials) already have decent-paying reliable jobs. As long as the Philadelphia region is able to continue its job growth at a reasonable rate and able to absorb the people moving into the city, then I don’t think that’s really an issue. If the city has lost jobs when compared to the distant past, then it has also lost population. The main thing seems to be that both continue to grow in moderation. Downtown jobs are definitely preferred (being able to walk to work is amazing), but even reverse commuting is acceptable provided that the office is accessible by train. Millennials for the most part don’t really value driving that much. I personally hate it.



I think the top things Millennials in the city are concerned about, when you throw children into the mix, is the state of education and also safety. We have discussed the suburbs in relation to the education issue (which is really are largest concern right now), but our desire to stay in a vibrant and diverse urban environment is winning the argument. Even if we opt to send our child to a private or parochial school in a couple years, paying the tuition doesn’t seem too big of a deal if we are able to afford it. Of course we hope the Philly public schools improve (I know some of the top-rated public schools in the country are in the city), but it’s fairly difficult getting into the really good ones and I don’t know that the rest will be improved enough by the time we would need them. We’re still watching that closely.

The city has made a lot of improvement regarding crime over the last decade and for the most part we feel very safe. However, there are a lot of drug dealers in our neighborhood (something we care much more about now that we have a child) and from time to time there are shootings (this is very uncommon, but it happened that there were 3 yesterday in our neighborhood, all drug related). I don’t know what can be done about this though; it’s hard to accept that crime is just a part of city living, since there are many cities in Europe, Asia, Australia, Canada and I’m sure elsewhere with much lower crime rates. For whatever reasons, cities in the US tend to have higher crime rates.

As far as our 2nd house, I’d definitely buy in Philly again or even build up. I can also say that most Millennials I know also don’t value huge houses that much and are more about efficiency/practicality and are fine with a home on the smaller side (we’ve got a two br/1 bath that is so far working fine). Things that would force us out of the city would be if all hell breaks loose/a reverse in Philadelphia’s upward trend. I think that Philadelphia will retain a lot of its Millennial population though.

I regret that I haven't the time to develop a complete response to your concerns. However, I believe you are on the right path.

Yes, the best schools are compétitive, but your sense of concern will assure the degree of involvement required for your children to excel in that environment.

Always be aware of what schoolwork they are doing, and assist that process, for example; homework, the best you can manage even when everyone is tired and cranky. Keep a level head and know when to provide space.

Activity diversity is essential! All readily available in the city. Music, sports, martial arts, applied arts, language classes, acting classes, etc. of very fine quality are often available at reasonable cost...it is ultimately a question of what balance works best for each child.

I was very apprehensive about the long (although express trains from broad and walnut locust) commute to Central. However, nothing bad ever happened; even coming late from an activity. The subway is packed with other commuters and students!

There are so many more options developing than were even available to us.

I wish you all the best!

[1487]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Good perspectives from everyone. I think you're hitting the nail on the head here. People too often conflate the issue and make it about other things like Quality of Life or schools or safety. But to me, it's so often about space.

And this is the same thing that happens in NYC, Boston, DC with millennials as well - this is not unique to PHL. Space is at a premium in cities, and you pay $$ for it. It's all fun and games to have a cute 2br/1bath starter house in Wash West before kids... but once that first one arrives, that house shrinks quickly.

And to buy a 2000sf house with 3-4 bedrooms and 2+ bathrooms in a stable neighborhood is generally really, really expensive. In some 'hoods, over $1million expensive - $$ most millennials don't have access to.

I live in Fitler Square and instead of looking at raising children in the city as some sacrificial burden, my wife and I look at it as a privilege.

One difference between Philly and the other cities you mentioned is that you can actually get a house with some space and still be only 30min from CC for an affordable price. While outlying neighborhoods aren't as "urban" as CC, South Philly and Fairmount- they still have transit access and relatively short commutes to CC. You can get a nice house for $300k or less in NW Philly and have a 30 min train ride to work. Not necessarily the case in other NE cities.

[1487]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Right, exactly. There are always going to be large segments of the population that move to the suburbs (in every city) during child rearing years simply because you get so much more bang for your buck. The only people I know that have stayed in the city after kid 2 are affluent and can do so comfortable.

This could be shocking to many but there are many families with kids with "good" jobs that still live in Philly- the city is larger than Greater CC. There is a world out there and while many seem to discount any residents who don't live in or near the core (like myself) these are important tax paying constituents. Some don't want to move, some work for the city and cannot move, some could move but think doing so would put a financial strain on their household. I most definitely make enough money to move outside of the city, but doing so would mean increased mortgage, huge increase in property taxes, more gas usage and getting a mandatory 2nd car. All of that so I could put my kids in a homogenous "good" school that won't guarantee they will become Harvard enrolees down the road. Most people like myself would only move if they were in a totally untenable school or neighborhood crime situation.

[Gonzo the Great]

[QUOTE=acenturi;7706375]What are you talking about. AKER (which. BTW, is Norwegian, not German) is still building ships at the Navy Yard. All they did was change their name: "Changing our name to Philly Shipyard more accurately reflects the shipyard we have become in recent years," shipyard president and CEO Steinar Nerbovik said.




Ok , thank you for bringing me up to speed and obviously I am wrong about who is and who isn't providing " good " paying positions for qualified
personnel seeking life long , pension oriented careers . This is where I was heading when I made my ill informed statement about middle / upper
middle salary that are not directly connected to the finance / medical / education fields of endeavor . My ineffective point was , there are tons of
other really decent financially rewarding careers here , and Philly ( or any urban center ) should not pigeon hole it's talent into a limited category
of opportunities ..... Your statement and my attempt proves ( at least to my narrow minded thinking ) that disregarding or down playing the
manufacturing / production equation is paramount to shooting yourself in the foot ....... BTW , below is a list of some of the salaried positions your
firm provides ..... not bad ..... not bad at all .

Aker Philadelphia Shipyard Salaries
Updated October 19, 2016
16 salaries (for 12 job titles)

Salaries in $ (USD)
Average
MinMax
Electrical Testing and Commissioning Technician
2 salaries
About
$90k - $112k
$90k $112k
Senior Dock Manager
2 salaries
About
$130k - $183k
$130k $183k
Senior Paint Manager
2 salaries
About
$109k - $145k
$109k $145k

Grand Block/Dry Dock Manager
2 salaries
About
$129k - $177k
$129k $177k