Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Kisai

If anything, this is a validation that the Skytrain tech is superior, or the Canada Line is the weaker system. If Surrey goes with it's LRT boondoggle it will also be another thing that doesn't work well in the snow. Guarantee it.

In the Canada Line's defense, they clearly could have rectified the problem.

Calgary and Edmonton's LRTs work just fine in the snow, FYI. LIM should in theory be better still and have zero problems as it's not the wheels pulling the train but the induction rail, but it would seem the Canada line has additional problems that other LRTs don't.

[WarrenC12]

Canada Line south of Marine and that area of the bridge has been a problem multiple times, in different types of weather. Maybe that switch sucks, or something else is poorly put together there. Just my observation over 4-5 years of taking the Canada Line.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Took 2.5 hours to get home today. How were your commutes?

The usual 45 minutes to get from Port Coquitlam (near Coquitlam Centre) to New Westminster by walking and SkyTrain. I haven't had any problems at all. It was really nice being on the SkyTrain going faster than all the cars on Highway 1 last night.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Calgary and Edmonton's LRTs work just fine in the snow, FYI. LIM should in theory be better still and have zero problems as it's not the wheels pulling the train but the induction rail, but it would seem the Canada line has additional problems that other LRTs don't.

Right, at least rail transit (RRT and LRT) can function after a snowfall. That's more than we can say for our buses at the moment.

[Express691]

VERY satisfied that Expo SkyTrain wasnt delayed yesterday evening. Tackled the snow without a problem. The 502 took 30 minutes to arrive (it was 6:20 when I arrived). The lineup went up to the city hall plaza area. Managed to get seats on my bus, on the bright side (although wsiting for 2 buses altogether)

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Right, at least rail transit (RRT and LRT) can function after a snowfall. That's more than we can say for our buses at the moment.

LRT, probably not so. Portland had a closure on the MAX during a recent snowfall. A train derailed due to ice at Rose Quarter. Not to mention the overheads are prone to ice and/or falling trees.

http://www.kgw.com/mb/news/local/max-derails-at-rose-quarter-expect-major-delays/385764465

[dothediu]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Canada Line south of Marine and that area of the bridge has been a problem multiple times, in different types of weather. Maybe that switch sucks, or something else is poorly put together there. Just my observation over 4-5 years of taking the Canada Line.

Skytrain gets its power off the power rail from the side, has nothing to do with LIM. When there's snow, it's not likely to accumulate on the side of the power rails.

Canada Line, the power rail shoe gets the power from the top of the power rail. When there's snow, it accummulates on top of the power rail, and trains have a lot of trouble getting power, hence you have many more issues when it snows from Marine drive onwards.

Pic of Skytrain power rail shoe


Pic of canada line power rail shoe

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Canada Line south of Marine and that area of the bridge has been a problem multiple times, in different types of weather. Maybe that switch sucks, or something else is poorly put together there. Just my observation over 4-5 years of taking the Canada Line.

Could be the bridge. I've heard other posters say it's the grade. It was weird how trains were terminating and turning around at Bridgeport instead of continuing through to VYR/Brighouse and how it was single platform.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Could be the bridge. I've heard other posters say it's the grade. It was weird how trains were terminating and turning around at Bridgeport instead of continuing through to VYR/Brighouse and how it was single platform.

So does the Provincial Gov't/Translink get compensation from their PPP partner when they can't deliver thanks to poor design?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

So does the Provincial Gov't/Translink get compensation from their PPP partner when they can't deliver thanks to poor design?

It would be great to see the P3 contract. Schedule 3 I think usually covers operations.

You could check these documents, I don't see the actual Project Agreement here:

http://www.translink.ca/site-info/docume...B16E6D21B-BF1E-4B78-B31E-B7522CE29546%7D

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It would be great to see the P3 contract. Schedule 3 I think usually covers operations.

You could check these documents, I don't see the actual Project Agreement here:

http://www.translink.ca/site-info/docume...B16E6D21B-BF1E-4B78-B31E-B7522CE29546%7D

Even with a FOI, if the full P3 contract was released, I'd expect lotsa redacting to protect ProTrans' privacy and gov't secrecy.

[dothediu]

http://buzzer.translink.ca/2017/02/thankyouforyourpatience/

The unprecedented weather patterns and environmental conditions have presented us with many challenges, including in a particularly steep area over the Fraser River (the North Arm Bridge). Because of the steep grade, trains require full power when travelling through this section of the bridge, and Canada Line believes ice buildup on the power rail is the likely cause of the disruptions.

[MIPS]

I've seen both the SkyTrain and the Canada line running on especially frosty mornings and evenings. There's a distinct spray of sparks from both as the collectors pass over ice and snow stuck to the power rails.
Neither technology is immune to this. Really the best they can do is put fiberglass covers over the power rails but we no longer use that outside of stations. The Expo Line lost all of its shrouds when the power rails were replaced.

[xsoccerplayer18x]

Alternatively, it may have been a better choice to have current collection from the underside of the third rail, as opposed to the top. That brings up the problem of maintaining constant adhesion of the shoe to the underside of the rail though.

I seem to recall that a few years back the thoughts were that the steepness of the North Arm Bridge approaches, when icy, caused the wheels to slip and the trains timed out.

Not sure if some sort of anti-freeze solution or sanding would alleviate a lot of these problems.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Hopefully, this is the last time we have a P3 contract.

“I guess the question I'm asked the most often is: "When you were sitting in that capsule listening to the count-down, how did you feel?" Well, the answer to that one is easy. I felt exactly how you would feel if you were getting ready to launch and knew you were sitting on top of two million parts -- all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract.” - John Glenn, 1962

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Hopefully, this is the last time we have a P3 contract.

“I guess the question I'm asked the most often is: "When you were sitting in that capsule listening to the count-down, how did you feel?" Well, the answer to that one is easy. I felt exactly how you would feel if you were getting ready to launch and knew you were sitting on top of two million parts -- all built by the lowest bidder on a government contract.” - John Glenn, 1962

Well, the Apollo program's parts were often price-gauged because they could and would get away with it (time was crucial).

It's really a redundancy vs cost thing. If we get PPP and Broadway and Surrey Skytrain, or non-PPP and just Broadway, I'm choosing the former.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by MIPS

The bridge has always been a weak spot. Every time it snows hard the trains can't make the grade.



The bridge grade was poorly thought out.

We need a cover over the sloped sections of the Canada Line. Can't be that expensive, and it can be used for 30+ years on a high use line.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by fredinno

We need a cover over the sloped sections of the Canada Line. Can't be that expensive, and it can be used for 30+ years on a high use line.

How about engineering the sections to have a deicing spraying system?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

How about engineering the sections to have a deicing spraying system?

Even just a scraper system ahead of the power shoe would probably work. If it's ice on the rails, then add sand or a similar scraper.

Heat trace for a couple hundred metres is probably also an option, since the rails probably rarely get more than a couple degrees below freezing.

Some railways also use natural gas heaters at switches to keep them from freezing.

[dothediu]

In regards to the bridge grade, it's needed to be steep because of clearance of ships going thru the Fraser River there. I am sure it meets the specifications as specified by Translink and Province, otherwise how do you quantify a "bad design"? Perhaps they could have started going on a slope sooner after Marine Drive Stn so it's not as steep? But it would mean taller guideway posts, which means more money...

With a P3 contract, the contractor actually bares the risk of costs if there is overrun. It's a fixed cost contract. Anything over, the contractor pays. Just like the Evergreen tunnels issues that came up and being delayed, it was all extra cost to SNC. If you don't want P3, then they rack up the price like crazy, and guess who pays in the end? You, the taxpayer. You will just end up with more media saying Translink is bad at managing money and project, etc...

[dothediu]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

How about engineering the sections to have a deicing spraying system?

I think they do have a deicing train that sprays the power rail at night. But not when snow/ice builds up in revenue service.