Baseline Rd. Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) Project | Proposed

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Also, spend tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on transit projects ANYWHERE but in places that serve people who live within the old city of Ottawa and its liberties like Vanier.

When looking at the overall picture, this is very important to the city. Remember, this link is entirely within the Greenbelt. You are not going to get much with this amount of money if you are thinking of a Vanier subway.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Also, spend tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on transit projects ANYWHERE but in places that serve people who live within the old city of Ottawa and its liberties like Vanier.

You do realise how dense of an area this is serving right? Plus some of the developments are probably roughly as old as many chunks of Vanier.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Also, spend tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on transit projects ANYWHERE but in places that serve people who live within the old city of Ottawa and its liberties like Vanier.

Here's the thing. Baseline and Heron roads are typically 6-7 lanes wide, with a wide median in many places and most of the buildings are set back from the road. As a result, very few buildings will need to be demolished to build the busway.

On the other hand, Rideau St and Montreal Rd are typically 4-5 lanes wide and the buildings are mostly close to the curb. While this makes for a much more pedestrian friendly environment (lower traffic speeds and shorter distances to walk), it means if a similar busway were to be built, almost half of the buildings on these streets would need to be demolished. The alternative is to tunnel, but then the costs would increase by at least an order of magnitude. The only option remaining is to fit bus lanes on the existing roadway, which is what the current TMP calls for.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

When looking at the overall picture, this is very important to the city. Remember, this link is entirely within the Greenbelt.

So that means that the downtown core, Vanier, the old streetcar suburbs, are unimportant to the city. Understood.

You are not going to get much with this amount of money if you are thinking of a Vanier subway.

Nope, but there is NOTHING being spent to improve local transit in the older core. NOTHING. ZERO. ZIP. ZILCH. And nothing is on the books. Nothing is in planning. Nothing is happening, other than brain farts from the likes of Fleury and Nussbaum that have resulted in further degradation of service.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Beedok

You do realise how dense of an area this is serving right?

Less dense than the old city core, yes: most of that route is bounded by the Farm.

Plus some of the developments are probably roughly as old as many chunks of Vanier.

And?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

On the other hand, Rideau St and Montreal Rd are typically 4-5 lanes wide and the buildings are mostly close to the curb. While this makes for a much more pedestrian friendly environment (lower traffic speeds and shorter distances to walk), it means if a similar busway were to be built

Which no one that I know of is calling for, least of all me.

almost half of the buildings on these streets would need to be demolished. The alternative is to tunnel, but then the costs would increase by at least an order of magnitude. The only option remaining is to fit bus lanes on the existing roadway, which is what the current TMP calls for.

Yes, eventually. Meanwhile the political and budgetary decisions are all being made to improve service in the suburbs. Absolutely nothing is happening to improve local service in the core. Nothing. Zero. Zip.

[rocketphish]

Proposed $148M Baseline busway wins transportation committee OK

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: February 1, 2017 | Last Updated: February 1, 2017 5:43 PM EST

The proposed Baseline Road busway took a step forward Wednesday as the city’s transportation committee approved a plan to build the $148-million cross-town line to carry 10,000 riders a day.

The 14-kilometre Richmond-Baseline-Heron corridor bypasses downtown, connecting OC Transpo riders to existing and planned Transitway and O-Train networks. There will be 24 new stations, each located about 575 metres apart (Transitway stations are between 800 metres to one kilometre apart). The plan also includes kilometres of new sidewalks and cycle tracks.

Buses will use designated median lanes, which the city says will shave travel time and increase reliability because they won’t get stuck in congestion.

“That’s effectively what makes it rapid,” said Keith Egli, transportation committee chairman.

Some residents raised concerns about having to walk further to reach a bus stop, navigating ice- and snow-covered sidewalks and platforms in winter, and crossing several lanes of traffic to board the bus in the median, instead of catching it at the curb.

Egli says the city has listened to those concerns and will respond by enhancing snow removal on the sidewalks and road, adding benches along the corridor, and installing a new signalized intersection at St. Helen’s Place.

The city is still seeking commitments from the federal and provincial governments to pay for the first stretch, from Baseline to Heron stations, which will cost an estimated $140 million. Transit priority measures between Baseline and Bayshore will add another $8 million to the tab.

The actual rapid transit line between Baseline and Bayshore, to be built sometime after 2031, is estimated to cost a further $140 million.

Egli says he’s not worried efforts to secure funding for this project will get in the way of the city’s plans for building the second phase of LRT. “There hasn’t been any, ‘If you want this, you have to trade off that,'” he said.

Existing OC Transpo service along the corridor is primarily provided by Route 118. Route 111 also travels along the corridor east of Prince of Wales, while eight other routes use it for short stretches. Buses operate primarily in mixed traffic, where they are often delayed by congestion.

John Manconi, general manager of transportation services, says it’s too early to know what service will look like once the busway is finished. Integration into the current bus network will be part of the detailed design phase.

“The key point is you’re going to get through that corridor much quicker than in the past,” he said.

The city says 15 private properties will be expropriated, while more than 200 others could be affected. Strips of land are also required from 10 properties owned by the federal government, including the Central Experimental Farm.

If everything falls into place, construction could begin by 2020 and buses would start rolling down the new lanes in 2022.

Council will vote on the plan next week.

The transportation committee also agreed to find an alternate route for the Blackburn Hamlet Bypass and Cumberland Transitway after a report found the existing approved corridor would prove too costly because of unsuitable ground conditions.

[email protected]
twitter.com/mpearson78

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...-busway-wins-transportation-committee-ok

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

So that means that the downtown core, Vanier, the old streetcar suburbs, are unimportant to the city. Understood.



Nope, but there is NOTHING being spent to improve local transit in the older core. NOTHING. ZERO. ZIP. ZILCH. And nothing is on the books. Nothing is in planning. Nothing is happening, other than brain farts from the likes of Fleury and Nussbaum that have resulted in further degradation of service.

Although not specifically referencing Vanier, I have been whining about 'local service' at length. Look at my post history.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Less dense than the old city core, yes:

And the old city core has much better service.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

most of that route is bounded by the Farm.

Please, like maybe 1/4 is beside the farm. The route in general has mange large apartment complexes, dense townhouses, commercial areas that are ripe for intensification, and it provides a bypass around the downtown for commuters not going there, providing increased relief on transit downtown.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And?

That means it's serving the old city that you complain is being ignored. Just not the part you specifically care for. Effectively your argument holds up about as well as someone in Barrhaven complaining that Carling might get LRT but not them, you're just focused on your part of town, not the city as a whole.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Which no one that I know of is calling for, least of all me.



Yes, eventually. Meanwhile the political and budgetary decisions are all being made to improve service in the suburbs. Absolutely nothing is happening to improve local service in the core. Nothing. Zero. Zip.

I live in Ottawa-Vanier. I have never seen any federal or provincial or local politician or candidate show any interest in transit. I have never seen any community group offer any significant proposal. And frankly I have never seen a proposal more sophisticated than demanding a subway for Montreal road. The cycling lobby has been very effiective, the parking lobby has been very effective while the transit lobby (if it exists) has not.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Although not specifically referencing Vanier, I have been whining about 'local service' at length. Look at my post history.

But unless you are the City of Ottawa, my point stands.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Beedok

And the old city core has much better service.

By what objective measure?

Please, like maybe 1/4 is beside the farm. The route in general has mange large apartment complexes

Yes, it does. It is still less dense than the core.

dense townhouses, commercial areas that are ripe for intensification

So, not that dense yet?

and it provides a bypass around the downtown for commuters not going there, providing increased relief on transit downtown.

Yes, it provides relief on the crosstown routes that would otherwise go THROUGH the core, but it does nothing for local transit within the core, the problem that OC Transpo and the City are actively avoiding doing anything about.

That means it's serving the old city that you complain is being ignored.

Baseline is not the old city. It is post-war suburban development.

Just not the part you specifically care for.

You and I have different meanings for "old city".

Effectively your argument holds up about as well as someone in Barrhaven complaining that Carling might get LRT but not them, you're just focused on your part of town, not the city as a whole.

I might as well focus on my part of the city, because no one at City Hall is.

I don't mind the suburbs getting all kinds of transit development. Bring it. I have to travel in and within the suburbs, too.

I DO mind the suburbs getting all kinds of transit development paid for by the taxes that I and other inner residents pay, while we are getting 🞵🞵🞵🞵-all in return, though. That is the thing that I mind. And I super-seriously mind that there will not be any kind of real, non-bus transit serving anything but the CBD and suburban-to-core transit lines in my lifetime, and that there is nothing being done to address the very real problems with local transit west of St. Laurent, east of, say, Westboro station, and north of Billings Bridge.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I live in Ottawa-Vanier. I have never seen any federal or provincial or local politician or candidate show any interest in transit. I have never seen any community group offer any significant proposal. And frankly I have never seen a proposal more sophisticated than demanding a subway for Montreal road. The cycling lobby has been very effiective, the parking lobby has been very effective while the transit lobby (if it exists) has not.

There are a good chunk of us crying out for improvements, as individuals.

Fleury and Nussbaum and that useless dink of a Mayor come up with all kinds of creative ways of ignoring us.

We ask for more capacity, and get ignored. We ask for more road space to be devoted to transit, we get ignored. We ask for better shelter, we get ignored. We ask for more "extras" to pick up the slack so that people who live in the "near suburbs" have a fighting chance to get a seat, we get ignored. We ask for rear-door boarding on artics, we get ignored. We ask for better connections, we get ignored. We point out the problems with route splits and stop "optimization", we get ignored.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE RESIDENTS AND TRANSIT USERS.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

There are a good chunk of us crying out for improvements, as individuals.

Fleury and Nussbaum and that useless dink of a Mayor come up with all kinds of creative ways of ignoring us.

We ask for more capacity, and get ignored. We ask for more road space to be devoted to transit, we get ignored. We ask for better shelter, we get ignored. We ask for more "extras" to pick up the slack so that people who live in the "near suburbs" have a fighting chance to get a seat, we get ignored. We ask for rear-door boarding on artics, we get ignored. We ask for better connections, we get ignored. We point out the problems with route splits and stop "optimization", we get ignored.

THE PROBLEM IS NOT WITH THE RESIDENTS AND TRANSIT USERS.

Politics doesn't work that way. Politicians advocate for things that get them votes (or prevent them from losing votes) or things that get them money or things that get them media attention. Local voters sent a clear message in the recent by-election that they will vote liberal even when the premier has a 13% approval rating, so the only way to get transit funding would be convince candidates for the nomination that transit users are an organized enough group to sway a nomination meeting.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Politics doesn't work that way. Politicians advocate for things that get them votes (or prevent them from losing votes) or things that get them money or things that get them media attention. Local voters sent a clear message in the recent by-election that they will vote liberal even when the premier has a 13% approval rating, so the only way to get transit funding would be convince candidates for the nomination that transit users are an organized enough group to sway a nomination meeting.

Good point. When is this nomination?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Good point. When is this nomination?

I don't think it is scheduled but the new membership deadline has closed.
https://www.hilltimes.com/2017/01/30/lib...ssed-get-vote-effort-feb-5-contest/93946

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Absolutely nothing is happening to improve local service in the core. Nothing. Zero. Zip.

Adding bus lanes don't take the same level of budget and planning that a full busway or LRT system does, so I'm not so sure that nothing is being done. It may well be that there is just worth seeing. Given the timelines are much shorter, they may be finished the Montreal bus lanes well before the Baseline BRT, despite the later getting media attention now.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

By what objective measure?

Questioning that proves you have no idea about the transit needs of this area. Talk to anyone who's ever had to take a 118 and it's pretty universally agreed that it's one of (if not the) most over capactiy routes in the city, and road congestion along Baseline is so bad walking can sometimes be faster than driving (especially if it's snowed).
It's also so bad that ambulances are frequently trapped in gridlock as their sirens blare, which is another reason that bus lanes would be useful. It would almost certainly save lives.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Yes, it does. It is still less dense than the core.

As the core? No, not quite. As Vanier? Probably.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

So, not that dense yet?

Residential density is high. Commercial density is increasing.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Yes, it provides relief on the crosstown routes that would otherwise go THROUGH the core, but it does nothing for local transit within the core, the problem that OC Transpo and the City are actively avoiding doing anything about.

Except the former does help the latter. If there's fewer crosstown commuters on buses running through the core then that frees up seats for people moving about in the core.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Baseline is not the old city. It is post-war suburban development.

So is much (most?) of Vanier.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

You and I have different meanings for "old city".

I was trying to use yours, that seems to include early post war suburbs. My definition of the old city only crosses the Rideau for the New Edinborough area (and maybe Rockcliff).

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I might as well focus on my part of the city, because no one at City Hall is.

Sure, but you need to recognise there are some areas in desparate need of investment other than your own.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Politics doesn't work that way. Politicians advocate for things that get them votes (or prevent them from losing votes) or things that get them money or things that get them media attention. Local voters sent a clear message in the recent by-election that they will vote liberal even when the premier has a 13% approval rating, so the only way to get transit funding would be convince candidates for the nomination that transit users are an organized enough group to sway a nomination meeting.

Fun fact: OC Transpo is run by the City of Ottawa.

City streets are designed, built, maintained, and regulated by the City of Ottawa.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Questioning that proves you have no idea about the transit needs of this area. Talk to anyone who's ever had to take a 118

That'd be me.

and it's pretty universally agreed that it's one of (if not the) most over capactiy routes in the city, and road congestion along Baseline is so bad walking can sometimes be faster than driving (especially if it's snowed).

True. But trunk streets in the core, especially the Rideau-Montreal axis, are just as bad.

I am intimately familiar with both the 118 and the downtown local routes.

Except the former does help the latter. If there's fewer crosstown commuters on buses running through the core then that frees up seats for people moving about in the core.

Nope. The Baseline route does not have any impact on ridership on downtown locals. It might on crosstown Transitway routes, but those won't exist for much longer, and the beneficial cannibalism of ridership will be 118 vs. LRT.

So is much (most?) of Vanier.

Much (most) of Vanier is older and denser than Baseline.

I was trying to use yours, that seems to include early post war suburbs. My definition of the old city only crosses the Rideau for the New Edinborough area (and maybe Rockcliff).

In which case your definition is wrong.

Sure, but you need to recognise there are some areas in desparate need of investment other than your own.

No more desperate than the inner neighbourhoods, nope.

When it takes longer to get into work downtown by transit in the morning from 5km away than from 20, there's a problem. That problem is with local transit in the core.

That is a problem which needs attention. That attention is lacking by OC Transpo and City Hall, except to the extent that they can make things worse.