PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[BrianTH]

I once heard that color described as "Persian Orange", which looks about right to me:



According to Wikipedia:

Persian orange is a color used in pottery and Persian carpets in Iran. . . . Orange pudding (milk added to pureed oranges that is mixed in a blender with flour and slowly boiled on a stovetop) is colored Persian orange, assuming no food coloring is added.

I could see that being a decent color for pottery and traditional carpets, and orange pudding sounds tasty. But buildings should not look like they were slowly boiled in milk.

[BrianTH]

3. A new five-story, 36-unit apartment building is slated to be built on Miller Street in the Lower Hill.

Ask and ye shall receive!

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Random aside, but my long-term vision is the Lower Hill and Uptown will be developed such as there is basically a continuity of urban fabric at least up to Miller (my understanding is that promontory across from Roberts between Miller and Dinwiddie creates the first truly undevelopable slope between the Lower Hill and Uptown).

[eschaton]

SCI Pittsburgh (better known as Western Penitentiary) is slated to be closed by the end of this year.

On one hand, of course, this is a blow to the region economically. I mean, I'm hardly a fan of prisons, but the city will lose 550 jobs. Most of these workers will likely either accept transfers outside of the region or lose their job entirely.

On the other hand, as Tom Wolf notes, the parcel is ripe for redevelopment. It's a huge area which could fit an entire "mini-neighborhood" on its own. I could see a redevelopment which keeps the oldest building by the river to rehab as apartments, adds a marina on the wide "front lawn," and builds new construction mixed-use structures closer to 65. It has limited connectivity to the rest of the city, but on the other hand the riverfront trail is right there for recreation. Hopefully something interesting comes out of this in the end.

[AFW523]

Originally Posted by eschaton

SCI Pittsburgh (better known as Western State Penitentiary) is slated to be closed by the end of this year.

On one hand, of course, this is a blow to the region economically. I mean, I'm hardly a fan of prisons, but the city will lose 550 jobs. Most of these workers will likely either accept transfers outside of the region or lose their job entirely.

On the other hand, as Tom Wolf notes, the parcel is ripe for redevelopment. It's a huge area which could fit an entire "mini-neighborhood" on its own. I could see a redevelopment which keeps the oldest building by the river to rehab as apartments, adds a marina on the wide "front lawn," and builds new construction mixed-use structures closer to 65. It has limited connectivity to the rest of the city, but on the other hand the riverfront trail is right there for recreation. Hopefully something interesting comes out of this in the end.

Penitentiary Chic micro-units.

[photoLith]

Well there goes 550 jobs. I hope they preserve the prison and don't tear it down, it's super historic built in 1888.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by eschaton

SCI Pittsburgh (better known as Western State Penitentiary) is slated to be closed by the end of this year.

On one hand, of course, this is a blow to the region economically. I mean, I'm hardly a fan of prisons, but the city will lose 550 jobs. Most of these workers will likely either accept transfers outside of the region or lose their job entirely.

On the other hand, as Tom Wolf notes, the parcel is ripe for redevelopment. It's a huge area which could fit an entire "mini-neighborhood" on its own. I could see a redevelopment which keeps the oldest building by the river to rehab as apartments, adds a marina on the wide "front lawn," and builds new construction mixed-use structures closer to 65. It has limited connectivity to the rest of the city, but on the other hand the riverfront trail is right there for recreation. Hopefully something interesting comes out of this in the end.

I thought about this too and I think besides the challenge of repurposing a massive 1800's masonry prison the other possibly bigger issue is that it's right next to the huge Alcosan facility. Do you think people will pay high rents next to that thing? Also the view across the river is very industrial - Smokestacks and industrial facilities.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

I thought about this too and I think besides the challenge of repurposing a massive 1800's masonry prison the other possibly bigger issue is that it's right next to the huge Alcosan facility. Do you think people will pay high rents next to that thing? Also the view across the river is very industrial - Smokestacks and industrial facilities.

It's actually not right next to Alcosan - there are a few light manufacturing plants on the intervening block.

But yeah, presuming you want to keep it cheap, knocking it down and building more light manufacturing/warehouse space would be easiest. After that I would guess office space. But I think a mini Washington's Landing (which doesn't have the best immediate view either) could be quite successful there.

[BrianTH]

Crime and imprisonment rates going down is about the best possible reason for jobs to be lost. I'm sympathetic when it comes to the individuals, of course, but from a greater social perspective this is good news. [Edit: although I guess there are services provided at Pittsburgh SCI that may be difficult to duplicate elsewhere.]

The historic building and wall are awesome. I mean, it is basically a castle. You would be foolish to tear down a castle. And as I recall the wall has a walkway on top, so that right there is another recreational opportunity and possible tourist attraction.

Given all that, I would have a preference for there being some sort of public-oriented uses incorporated in any plan (at least retail, but maybe also something like a museum, event space, park, or so on) to help leverage the public-attraction potential of the wall and historic buildings.

I agree the location at present could be better, but I am also a long term believer in that side of the Ohio River becoming a major re-development zone. So I would suggest the question is how to get there from here without losing the historic buildings. If a developer wants to do something right now consistent with that vision, great. But I'd be happy to take it slow as long as we could keep the building/wall from falling down.

[eschaton]

Interestingly, if you look at old historic maps, there actually was a residential neighborhood which was built around the old jail - presumably for the prison employees to live in. It was a rowhouse neighborhood built out between 1890 and 1910. It seems to have survived mostly intact through to the 1960s, and then was wiped out between the expansion of the prison and construction of new industrial buildings along Beaver Avenue.

[photoLith]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Interestingly, if you look at old historic maps, there actually was a residential neighborhood which was built around the old jail - presumably for the prison employees to live in. It was a rowhouse neighborhood built out between 1890 and 1910. It seems to have survived mostly intact through to the 1960s, and then was wiped out between the expansion of the prison and construction of new industrial buildings along Beaver Avenue.

The neighborhood of Manchester and what not in that part of the city pretty much went down to the river before industry came in and then the highway was built. A very impressive commercial street equivalent to East Ohio Street but longer was completely torn down when they built 65. Anyways, where all the industry and highways are on the Ohio was all historic row house neighborhoods back in the early 1900s.

[GeneW]

If the prison is repurposed, they should rebuild the towers:

[Private Dick]

I think the Western Pen site would be a great spot for a riverfront park.

I'm not sure I see housing on that site being too in demand or too successful at this time, given the large bordering properties that are not going anywhere anytime soon (i.e., Alcosan and Duquesne Light)... and the relative isolation from pretty much any type of shopping amenities... not to mention that it borders the city's poop and living in a 19th century prison would be creepy as hell.

A large amount of green space on the river is nonexistent in Pittsburgh. Keep the wall (with numerous cuts made through it) and only the main old building (with 2 passageways through it to the river) and maybe one or two other (for maintenance, activities center). Two promenades from Beaver Ave. to the river with cuts through the main building. Small marina and kayak rental, space for concerts. Lots of options for recreational use.



Make it a riverfront park and watch Woods Run/Marshall Shadeland/Brighton Heights become more desirable city neighborhoods.

But maybe I'm way off on this... it's early afternoon so I've obviously got a few bourbons in me.

[TBone7281]

Originally Posted by eschaton

SCI Pittsburgh (better known as Western Penitentiary) is slated to be closed by the end of this year.

On one hand, of course, this is a blow to the region economically. I mean, I'm hardly a fan of prisons, but the city will lose 550 jobs. Most of these workers will likely either accept transfers outside of the region or lose their job entirely.

On the other hand, as Tom Wolf notes, the parcel is ripe for redevelopment. It's a huge area which could fit an entire "mini-neighborhood" on its own. I could see a redevelopment which keeps the oldest building by the river to rehab as apartments, adds a marina on the wide "front lawn," and builds new construction mixed-use structures closer to 65. It has limited connectivity to the rest of the city, but on the other hand the riverfront trail is right there for recreation. Hopefully something interesting comes out of this in the end.

I'm pretty sure Peduto said the same thing, about it being "prime riverfront" property.

[TBone7281]

And yes, there is "activity" going on with the Audi dealership on Liberty. And by "activity" I mean fences and heavy equipment... but no workers in sight.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by eschaton

It's actually not right next to Alcosan - there are a few light manufacturing plants on the intervening block.

Yeah, it pretty much is. Valspar Paint has some facilities in there too, but Alcosan buildings and property does directly border it on the other side of Westhall St. I know the area well from biking on the trail and launching kayaks right there.

Regardless, Valspar is going anywhere either... not without lots of $$$$$. They have significant lab and mixing operations there.

[BrianTH]

I'd be down for a park like that. It could be a really cool experience and good for special events.

[mikebarbaro]

Took this photo from my apartment window on Stanwix Street for you guys. You can see a bunch of the structural steel being placed on the new upper floors of Towne Place...

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I think the Western Pen site would be a great spot for a riverfront park.

I'm not sure I see housing on that site being too in demand or too successful at this time, given the large bordering properties that are not going anywhere anytime soon (i.e., Alcosan and Duquesne Light)... and the relative isolation from pretty much any type of shopping amenities... not to mention that it borders the city's poop and living in a 19th century prison would be creepy as hell.

A large amount of green space on the river is nonexistent in Pittsburgh. Keep the wall (with numerous cuts made through it) and only the main old building (with 2 passageways through it to the river) and maybe one or two other (for maintenance, activities center). Two promenades from Beaver Ave. to the river with cuts through the main building. Small marina and kayak rental, space for concerts. Lots of options for recreational use.



Make it a riverfront park and watch Woods Run/Marshall Shadeland/Brighton Heights become more desirable city neighborhoods.

But maybe I'm way off on this... it's early afternoon so I've obviously got a few bourbons in me.

The issue I have with this idea is it really doesn't do anything to speak of with the historic prison itself, which will certainly need a lot of expensive rehab work just to make it look nice again on the outside and ensure it won't become degraded by te elements further. Let alone a rehab of the interior to be somewhere the general public can explore.

[BrianTH]

Old-style cell blocks make for interesting but challenging interior spaces. This is what it looks like inside SCI Pittsburgh:



Fortunately in this case, the building has great windows and it is one long building (sometimes they would layer these next to each other), but for any re-use but a monument or museum, I would think you would need to basically remove the cells and create large open spaces.

What you would get is something much like Hunt Armory or Mill 19. At Mill 19, they are basically building new buildings within the shell, and there was a proposal like that for the Armory too. Or you can make use of those large open spaces, such as the approved (but stalled) plan for a skating rink in Hunt Armory.

Off hand, I could see doing some of all of that with this building--some parts could be left as cell blocks for monument/museum purposes, some could be opened up as event/recreation spaces, and some could get the building-in-a-building treatment for apartments, offices, or such.

I might note I believe the closure plan includes a substantial chunk of money for "mothballing". I don't know exactly what that would entail, but I would hope it would be done with an eye to long-term preservation for future re-use projects.

[Private Dick]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The issue I have with this idea is it really doesn't do anything to speak of with the historic prison itself, which will certainly need a lot of expensive rehab work just to make it look nice again on the outside and ensure it won't become degraded by te elements further. Let alone a rehab of the interior to be somewhere the general public can explore.

I think that is secondary. Make it a museum like Eastern Penitentiary in Philly? Some rehab would likely have to be done on it regardless of what the use of the land is going to be... significantly greater rehab obviously if were actually to be used as housing, offices, etc., which would probably prove cost-prohibitive and not feasible.

But I would not do too much to the outside (it's stone and it's been there since the 1880s) nor inside... the minimum to keep it structurally sound. The prison building and gated grounds provide the dramatic, imposing, and peaceful setting on the river -- they aren't and shouldn't be the focus for the actual use of the park.

Some type of museum/historic exhibit/public use/storage... doesn't really matter to me too much what it would be used for, as long as they don't tear it down. It's historic, but doesn't have the same significance that it would have if it were still the original site on the northside.

I don't think any dramatic redesign/repurposing of the building is necessary or even a good idea. I don't think grand plans are in order here. The simplest reuse of the land here is probably what would work best. Preserve the main building and make parkland around it.