Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Some here don't remember when the public was citing the Expo Line a failure after trains would arrive nearly empty at New Westminster circia 1990. No one would dare to get off at Royal Oak, Joyce, Edmonds because those were industrial wastelands. Heck, I even remember the media lambasting the government for going through with the Surrey extension.

The difference is that Fraser Highway is actually heavily populated and there is tons of potential to further develop and densify the corridor. This line needs to be built for a variety of reasons but the buses down Fraser Highway are running at crushload capacity even during off-peak hours.

Ok, but I think we can still agree that extending Expo down Fraser would make the line too long, and extending down Newton or 104 would require too sharp a turn.

Originally Posted by Kisai

My point was that one of Surrey's ridiculous claims was over the guideway "dividing" Surrey, when the LRT will do more than just divide Surrey, it will kill and injure countless people by running the LRT down what are essentially busy highways. So in 30 years there will likely be a demand for a full featured subway or "burying" the LRT to reclaim the road space. Same result.

As for the Canada Line or Arbutus Line, the Canada Line would require quite a bit more effort and expense to lengthen to support the same rolling stock the rest of the system uses. So it's more likely they would shut down the Canada Line to refurbish it when the Arbutus Line is operational if they plan to expand it and/or change the rolling stock type.

And Cut and Cover won't "divide" Surrey during construction?

If they get off LRT, the least "dividing" option is elevated. It may look a bit uglier, but it's better than losing segments of major roadways for months.

Plus, I'd rather see the $$$ spent elsewhere.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Ok, but I think we can still agree that extending Expo down Fraser would make the line too long, and extending down Newton or 104 would require too sharp a turn.

It's all about perspectives though. We have grown familiar to the 40min 28.9 km main Expo Line, but again, many thought a line to Surrey would be "too long" and that suburban buses could suffice as an alternative.

Total length of a Waterfront <--> Langley Centre Line would be near 44km or 55 minutes.

Skytrain is the only alternative here. If Surrey had a ROW similar to arbutus that ran near Fraser Highway than maybe a passenger commuter rail system could function better. The Southern Railway Line doesn't really pass through many neighborhoods and this line would be awfully slow for commuters.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

It's all about perspectives though. We have grown familiar to the 40min 28.9 km main Expo Line, but again, many thought a line to Surrey would be "too long" and that suburban buses could suffice as an alternative.

Total length of a Waterfront <--> Langley Centre Line would be near 44km or 55 minutes.

Skytrain is the only alternative here. If Surrey had a ROW similar to arbutus that ran near Fraser Highway than maybe a passenger commuter rail system could function better. The Southern Railway Line doesn't really pass through many neighborhoods and this line would be awfully slow for commuters.

But if we want to connect Newton, Langley, and Guildford with Skytrain, we still need 2 seperate Skytrain lines anyways (unless you want to extend Expo down Newton as well...) And most people from Langley or Newton are headed around Surrey Central, not Vancouver.

The SRY line would be good for a more frequent West Coast Express Style Commuter Rail System- and could connect North Delta.

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Ok, but I think we can still agree that extending Expo down Fraser would make the line too long, and extending down Newton or 104 would require too sharp a turn.

Still shorter than M-Line used to be, and turning is actually more of an issue for at-grade LRT than elevated SkyTrain. I'm quite curious how would they manage that turn onto the 104th in the LRT plan...

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by nname

Still shorter than M-Line used to be, and turning is actually more of an issue for at-grade LRT than elevated SkyTrain. I'm quite curious how would they manage that turn onto the 104th in the LRT plan...

a 90 degree turn can't be TOO hard... right?

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by fredinno

But if we want to connect Newton, Langley, and Guildford with Skytrain, we still need 2 seperate Skytrain lines anyways (unless you want to extend Expo down Newton as well...) And most people from Langley or Newton are headed around Surrey Central, not Vancouver.

The SRY line would be good for a more frequent West Coast Express Style Commuter Rail System- and could connect North Delta.

The SRY line would still only terminate at Scott Rd Station and it would have to deal with steep grades in both directions resulting in possible issues connecting Scott Road Station to the SRY branch.

We don't need 2 separate Skytrain lines. The solution is simple and here it is:

1. BRT from Guildford to Newton.
2. Skytrain down Fraser Highway.

PERHAPS
3. BRT from Newton to Scott Rd Station via 72nd Ave and Scott Rd.

It would be nice to see a West Coast Express -like commuter rail but the lack of any ROW and terrain in Surrey really makes it an unrealistic endeavor. Sharing any existing line owned by CP or CN is also out of the question.

Originally Posted by fredinno

a 90 degree turn can't be TOO hard... right?

Guard rails and an elevated outer section would need to be built into the ground assuming that 90 degree turn is on level pavement...Not a big deal, but it becomes a big deal when you are including such features on the road.

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

a 90 degree turn can't be TOO hard... right?

Traffic management. A turning LRT would typically require traffic to stop on all four directions - this is why many of the turnings on Calgary LRT is actually done underground rather than at-grade.

Edmonton did an at-grade turn for their new line to NAIT, and the result after the line opened - queue to cross intersection for traffic got up to 15min...

[ilikeredheads]

Well it's actually more than 90degree turn if they do it at 104 and University Dr
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.191581,-1...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

The problem is that since it has to go through the bus loop at Surrey Central, it has no other place to turn onto 104 ave without making long detour.



http://imgur.com/a/uVyZY

This is from a Translink study on possible rapid transit in Surrey. All of the LRT options have negative cost benefit.

[fredinno]

Also, regarding the expo line extension to Langley, if we extended Expo to Langley Memorial, it would become the 2nd longest subway/El rail line in the world(~56 km in length), right behind China's Line 10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_10,_Beijing_Subway (~57 km length).

And yes, Langley Memorial Hospital, not Willowbrook Mall. Because people need to go to the Hospital too. (and it 'future proof's the line for future developments in Murrayville and the Salmon River Highlands).

That doesn't seem very efficient...

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Also, regarding the expo line extension to Langley, if we extended Expo to Langley Memorial, it would become the 2nd longest subway/El rail line in the world(~56 km in length), right behind China's Line 10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_10,_Beijing_Subway (~57 km length).

And yes, Langley Memorial Hospital, not Willowbrook Mall. Because people need to go to the Hospital too. (and it 'future proof's the line for future developments in Murrayville and the Salmon River Highlands).

That doesn't seem very efficient...

Having a continuous line from one centre to the other seems more efficient to me than forcing all the people going between those destinations to get off one train and on another one going in the same direction.

With full grade separation, the lowering reliability of a transit line with length is very minimal. It would really just depend on random delays at select stations. Not a concern at all.

Besides, it's not going to Langley Memorial Hospital. Murrayville is not going to grow in any significant way into the future, and while hospitals are important destinations, they're not important enough to warrant costly extensions to them without other additional anchors. Terminating at Langley Centre (not sure where you got Willowbrook from) makes perfect sense, as it terminates at the last city centre in that direction. It's the way we've always built our rapid transit; to the furthest possible city centre, with that then becoming a hub for the local area. I'd go as far as to say that's one of our biggest successes. A hell of a lot better than Alberta's strategy of extending lines to the furthest extent of suburbia.

Not that any of that matters to the original point. The length would still be more than manageable.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Also, regarding the expo line extension to Langley, if we extended Expo to Langley Memorial, it would become the 2nd longest subway/El rail line in the world(~56 km in length), right behind China's Line 10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_10,_Beijing_Subway (~57 km length).

And yes, Langley Memorial Hospital, not Willowbrook Mall. Because people need to go to the Hospital too. (and it 'future proof's the line for future developments in Murrayville and the Salmon River Highlands).

That doesn't seem very efficient...

The longest BART Line is 88 km

[cganuelas1995]

With the Expo extension to Langley Centre making it 44km or 55 minutes long, as well as other lines extending further to the subs, I think the SkyTrain system is ripe for a quadruple tracking in some sections to give it express train capabilities.

[nname]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Also, regarding the expo line extension to Langley, if we extended Expo to Langley Memorial, it would become the 2nd longest subway/El rail line in the world(~56 km in length), right behind China's Line 10 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_10,_Beijing_Subway (~57 km length).

I had made a list on this forums... If the Expo Line extended to Langley today, it will be the 47th longest. It will be the longest in Canada... and that will be the only "longest" title I can think of...

And yeah, it will be 45km, not 56 unless we plan to extend it along Hastings to PNE. Even that, it would not make it to the top 25.

EDIT: Found it. Here is the full list

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

With the Expo extension to Langley Centre making it 44km or 55 minutes long, as well as other lines extending further to the subs, I think the SkyTrain system is ripe for a quadruple tracking in some sections to give it express train capabilities.

Again, why stop at Langley Centre? Might as well go all the way to the hospital for its cost.

Add that to hastings to PNE...56+ 6 km, or 62 km. Where does that line up?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Again, why stop at Langley Centre? Might as well go all the way to the hospital for its cost.

Add that to hastings to PNE...56+ 6 km, or 62 km. Where does that line up?

Look at google earth and see where the population is - that's why stop at Langley Centre (where TransLink has a bus loop) and not travel across even more green space just to have a stop at the hospital.

The way things are going, the most likely thing to happen is they'll extend Expo line out to Fleetwood as phase one. When they try to extend it further, Surrey council will have a snit (again) about people passing through Surrey to get to elsewhere and fight against it. Langley is not going to get Skytrain anytime soon.

A Hastings Line would go from downtown Van to Kootenay Loop. I don't know if there's enough demand to extend it beyond that, and Burnaby Mountain is too steep for it (we've had that conversation on here before).

[SleepyCommuter]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Look at google earth and see where the population is - that's why stop at Langley Centre (where TransLink has a bus loop) and not travel across even more green space just to have a stop at the hospital.

The way things are going, the most likely thing to happen is they'll extend Expo line out to Fleetwood as phase one. When they try to extend it further, Surrey council will have a snit (again) about people passing through Surrey to get to elsewhere and fight against it. Langley is not going to get Skytrain anytime soon.

Probably extending it one stop further out of Langley Centre for the idea of distributing the buses that eventually will stop on the Langley stations. Same idea that not all buses terminate in Surrey Central as means to get on to the Skytrain. It stops first in King George Station. Along the vein that prior to the Evergreen extension, not all buses uses Lougheed as a terminating point. The student heavy SFU buses uses Production Way

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by SleepyCommuter

Probably extending it one stop further out of Langley Centre for the idea of distributing the buses that eventually will stop on the Langley stations. Same idea that not all buses terminate in Surrey Central as means to get on to the Skytrain. It stops first in King George Station. Along the vein that prior to the Evergreen extension, not all buses uses Lougheed as a terminating point. The student heavy SFU buses uses Production Way

King George Station wasn't meant to be a permanent terminating station / end of the Expo Line. Just look at a map and you can see that the plan has been to (eventually) extend it down Fraser Hwy. It's like when the Skytrain ended in New West at Columbia Station - most of the action was at New West Station. It's only when the Skytrain went across the water to Scott Road Station that Columbia Station began to make any sense.

There isn't a plan to extend the Skytrain beyond Langley, so it makes a lot more sense to end it where the major population is, and not beyond that. Currently the hospital is beyond that. Maybe in the future that will change, which will be something for people then to consider.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Look at google earth and see where the population is - that's why stop at Langley Centre (where TransLink has a bus loop) and not travel across even more green space just to have a stop at the hospital.

The way things are going, the most likely thing to happen is they'll extend Expo line out to Fleetwood as phase one. When they try to extend it further, Surrey council will have a snit (again) about people passing through Surrey to get to elsewhere and fight against it. Langley is not going to get Skytrain anytime soon.

A Hastings Line would go from downtown Van to Kootenay Loop. I don't know if there's enough demand to extend it beyond that, and Burnaby Mountain is too steep for it (we've had that conversation on here before).

I dunno, that West Hastings area is the ghetto of Vancouver. Population has thus remained fairly stagnant. Unless they plan to revitalize that area with Skytrain... and they can have a 2nd gondola to SFU.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by fredinno

I dunno, that West Hastings area is the ghetto of Vancouver. Population has thus remained fairly stagnant. Unless they plan to revitalize that area with Skytrain... and they can have a 2nd gondola to SFU.

Hey there, country-dude. Hastings is probably the second highest volume bus corridor in the city, and there 'ghetto' as you describe the Downtown East Side is a comparatively short segment of it.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Sheba

[...]

A Hastings Line would go from downtown Van to Kootenay Loop. I don't know if there's enough demand to extend it beyond that, [...]

I have thought that Willingdon would make a good candidate for a future B-Line. If the Willingdon B-Line were to have its northern terminus at Hastings, a future Hastings Line from downtown Vancouver could terminate there, versus Kootaney Loop, and capture a good chunk of the Burnaby Heights neighbourhood. A southern terminus for the Willingdon B-Line would be Metrotown.