Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

maybe someone else noticed this, but i thought i would post it anyways.

anyone see the difference between the December 2015 Draft Concept, and the may 2016 report?

there are some big lane differences. i wonder if they will be replacing overpasses?

2015 @ Cambie overpass


2016 @ Cambie overpass


2015 @ Shell; highway overpass


2015 @ Shell; highway overpass

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by urbancanadian

I think they have gotten it all right when it comes to the rapid bus setup, except for one thing: the stations themselves. We all know that if you want to attract people to transit it needs to be frequent, reliable, and comfortable. The improvements to the highway itself, including the new HOV lanes will allow us to check off the first two. But I don't think the last one will be met in the current scheme.

As is, the stations will likely be wet, cold, windy, and very noisy. This is more than enough to dissuade passengers, but can be mitigated significantly by enclosing them with glass or other materials in between the bus lanes and the HOV lanes. Think of how these can be made similar to Skytrain stations.

That still wouldn't be enough though. Access to the stations is also very important. Passengers will be discouraged from using the station if it's overly long or complicated to get to. Basically the station needs to have one vertical movement and one horizontal movement, and no more - if possible. It looks like the current setup for the Steveston interchange will force people to go up a set of stairs, cross a bridge, down stairs, along a winding pathway, under another ramp, and back up to grade level (leaving the station). But if you shrink that to one set of stairs, and a straight (enclosed) overpass which could slope gently at the end, then you have something worth using.


RED DIAMOND = Escalators/Elevator
YELLOW LINE = Enclosed overpass

I'm glad there's someone who share the same sentiments that I was trying to express earlier.

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

maybe someone else noticed this, but i thought i would post it anyways.

anyone see the difference between the December 2015 Draft Concept, and the may 2016 report?

there are some big lane differences. i wonder if they will be replacing overpasses?

Well... that is one improvement I suppose. I'm glad they stopped trying to squeeze every penny out of the existing overpasses. Replacing them was really the only sensible way to go once they expanded the scope to include a full highway widening up to Oak Street Bridge.

[Mininari]

I just posted this in the Sunshine Coast Connector thread, but its certainly applicable to the GMT project too.

I was flipping through the news today and came across another story about the Federal Government's proposed Infrastructure Bank. After reading it, I thought the George Massey Bridge Project could be an excellent candidate for this kind of funding: A toll bridge that could generate hefty toll revenues. I know we all say traffic will dodge the tolls and use the free alternatives, but said alternatives are already a gong show. Either way, revenue levels are a debate in itself, but I think the GMB is an excellent candidate for the infrastructure bank (if it gets up and running).

The key is they need large projects that could generate a decent return for investors (Toll roads, bridges, hospitals, etc). They don't name any specific 'large' projects, but one can easily dream up some big projects... or simply look at ones that are in development, such as the George Massey Bridge, Sunshine Coast Connector, new (expensive) bypasses on the TransCanada Hwy in BC that could be tolled, etc.

http://www.680news.com/2016/11/13/pm...ture-projects/

by Joan Bryden and Jordan Press, The Canadian Press
Posted Nov 13, 2016 2:54 pm EST
Last Updated Nov 13, 2016 at 3:20 pm EST

...
Government insiders say the expectation is that the bank will focus initially on funding one class of projects, like hospitals or bridges, and then expand its scope to other projects over time. It’s a similar path to the one followed by the Ontario government in setting up its own arm’s-length infrastructure corporation.

No specific projects have yet been identified for funding from the bank but Trudeau, Morneau and Sohi are expected to tell potential investors Monday that toll bridges, energy grids and water systems could all be attractive investments for fund managers looking for predictable, long-term returns.

But finding Canadian projects big enough for the likes of BlackRock and its clients will be a challenge, officials say. That’s partly why the Monday morning meeting with the relatively smaller Canada-based funds is important too.
...
Edit/Delete Message

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

maybe someone else noticed this, but i thought i would post it anyways.

anyone see the difference between the December 2015 Draft Concept, and the may 2016 report?

there are some big lane differences. i wonder if they will be replacing overpasses?

Yeah, looks like the lane spacing is more uniform (instead of accommodating existing supports)

[makr3trkr]

Google estimated the lineup on Northbound 99 to be almost 1 hour today...

[officedweller]

Massey Tunnel replacement won't have ice bombs: B.C. government

Jennifer Saltman
Published on: December 13, 2016 | Last Updated: December 13, 2016 7:24 AM PST
...

According to the ministry, if a proposal for the new tunnel-replacement bridge involves cables, they’re not permitted to crossover traffic. The specifications also require that the contractor be responsible to ensure that snow and ice don’t fall onto the roadway from any elevated portion of the bridge above the deck and as a minimum require the builder to install cable collars similar to the Port Mann or “an improved alternative.”

When asked what other kind of mitigation could be used, Parkes said it remains to be seen what the emerging or proven technology will be at the time. “There hasn’t been lots, to be candid. We’re the only ones that have been able to keep a cable bridge open in a storm,” Parkes said, referring to the Port Mann and its cable collars.

The ministry stated that cable-supported bridges are used throughout the world, including in “much more aggressive” climates than ours.

Other cable-stayed bridges globally have had similar issues and required closures, including the Penobscot Narrows Bridge in Maine, Veterans Glass City Skyway Bridge in Ohio, the Tacoma Narrows Bridge in Washington state, Uddevalla Bridge in Sweden, the Severn Bridges in the U.K. and Zakim Bridge in Boston.

Sensors, electromagnetic systems, heaters and special coatings have been employed with varying degrees of success. Most times, when ice buildup becomes an issue on a cable-stayed bridge, the bridge is closed.

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/massey-tunnel-replacement-wont-have-ice-bombs-govt

[LeftCoaster]

Heard from a reliable source the plan is for this to be U/C by fall.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Heard from a reliable source the plan is for this to be U/C by fall.

Interesting, thanks for the info!

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Mininari

I just posted this in the Sunshine Coast Connector thread, but its certainly applicable to the GMT project too.

I was flipping through the news today and came across another story about the Federal Government's proposed Infrastructure Bank. After reading it, I thought the George Massey Bridge Project could be an excellent candidate for this kind of funding: A toll bridge that could generate hefty toll revenues. I know we all say traffic will dodge the tolls and use the free alternatives, but said alternatives are already a gong show. Either way, revenue levels are a debate in itself, but I think the GMB is an excellent candidate for the infrastructure bank (if it gets up and running).

The key is they need large projects that could generate a decent return for investors (Toll roads, bridges, hospitals, etc). They don't name any specific 'large' projects, but one can easily dream up some big projects... or simply look at ones that are in development, such as the George Massey Bridge, Sunshine Coast Connector, new (expensive) bypasses on the TransCanada Hwy in BC that could be tolled, etc.

http://www.680news.com/2016/11/13/pm...ture-projects/

by Joan Bryden and Jordan Press, The Canadian Press
Posted Nov 13, 2016 2:54 pm EST
Last Updated Nov 13, 2016 at 3:20 pm EST

...
Government insiders say the expectation is that the bank will focus initially on funding one class of projects, like hospitals or bridges, and then expand its scope to other projects over time. It’s a similar path to the one followed by the Ontario government in setting up its own arm’s-length infrastructure corporation.

No specific projects have yet been identified for funding from the bank but Trudeau, Morneau and Sohi are expected to tell potential investors Monday that toll bridges, energy grids and water systems could all be attractive investments for fund managers looking for predictable, long-term returns.

But finding Canadian projects big enough for the likes of BlackRock and its clients will be a challenge, officials say. That’s partly why the Monday morning meeting with the relatively smaller Canada-based funds is important too.
...
Edit/Delete Message

The largest Bridge in Vancouver, the Port Mann, is losing $$$ because of the debt burden from building 10 instead of 8 lanes.

And now they want a 10 lane George Massey? Someone want to run me over why no one learned anything from last time? Port Mann was the most ongest Bridge in Canada until they tolled it. Now, it's half empty.

Same thing with Pautello. I need to agree with the New West Mayors in that there is no space in the narrow roads there to support a 6 lane bridge- and that we need to divert traffic to the Port Mann anyways.

Even the Golden Ears probably should have been 4 lanes instead of 6.



That is, unless they plan to make huge industrial complexes in Richmond and Delta on ALR land.
Which would be a shame, since that's where the most productive and filled ALR land is, rather than in Langley and Maple Ridge.

It also brings the question on if there is demand for it. BC's own figures anticipates industrial employment will stagnate in the coming years. Are they planning large industrial tax cuts?


But hey, it should make the Chinese in Richmond feel right at home!





BTW, your link is broken.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by fredinno

The largest Bridge in Vancouver, the Port Mann, is losing $$$ because of the debt burden from building 10 instead of 8 lanes.

how do you know that is the reason? source? facts?

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

how do you know that is the reason? source? facts?

http://www.cknw.com/2016/08/02/port-mann-bridge-loses-82-5-million-in-2016-fiscal-year-report/

They went into more debt to finance a 10 lane bridge. Thus, more interest payments, thus, deeper in the red, thus, harder to make a profit.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by fredinno

http://www.cknw.com/2016/08/02/port-mann-bridge-loses-82-5-million-in-2016-fiscal-year-report/

They went into more debt to finance a 10 lane bridge. Thus, more interest payments, thus, deeper in the red, thus, harder to make a profit.

The marginal cost probably wasn't that much different. The bridge was approximately 1/3rd of the budget, so why make a bottleneck?

Do you think its that much easier to build a 2 lane bridge than a 10 lane one?

[logicbomb]

The bridge is losing money primarily because the Patullo has added 30% of the peak volume and a near 60% of evening and overnight traffic post toll implementation.

If the GMB gets built, they better damn well toll the AFB or else you'll see more of the same.

[Metro-One]

First of all, the point of roads and bridges is not to make money. The idea of paying for capitol expenses for such mega projects through tolls is terrible. Tolls IMO should just be seen as a source for some extra revenue and to control traffic volumes.

This is no different than expecting fare revenue to completely (or largely) pay for the capitol costs of the Evergreen Line (or nearly any transit line). Not going to happen.

I also always love the dammed if you do or don't approach from those against highways.

If the highway does not meet projected traffic volumes = failure for being underutilized.

If the highway exceeds projected traffic volumes = failure for "inducing" demand.

Can't have it both ways. It is a future proof built structure, and calling it half empty today is also quite a stretch....

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Can't have it both ways. It is a future proof built structure, and calling it half empty today is also quite a stretch....

especially since it is designed to be a 100 year bridge. if we build it to last 20 years, is it not more expensive to replace it every 20 compared to 100?

[fredinno]

ok, but it still raises the question why George Massey is so big. The Port Mann and Golden Ears might need "future proofing" due to the amount of empty non-ALR and semi-suburban ALR land, but there is very little on the South Delta side to develop. Richmond is expected to expand dramatically, but its traffic is also split onto the Alex Fraser.

http://sfb.nathanpachal.com/2016/08/provinces-own-numbers-show-massey.html

"Traffic volume through the Massey Tunnel has been declining over the last decade. There was less traffic going through the Massey Tunnel in 2014 on average than in 2003.

The Ministry of Transportation’s “independent” traffic model shows that a tolled crossing would drop traffic to a level not seen since the 1980s. TransLink numbers show an even stepper decline in traffic."

10 lanes is overkill... The tolled George Massey would hit 2014 levels of usage at around 2037.

Hopefully they toll the Alex Fraser, as well- that would mitigate this, but still. I just find the demand needs are doubtful. There is no land for urbanization or even industry in Delta and the only way for Richmond to grow is up- making it prime area for transit.

Even if they eventually expand the North Arm Bridges as well... (I hope) Are they planning to remove ALR land to support more development around it?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by fredinno

ok, but it still raises the question why George Massey is so big. The Port Mann and Golden Ears might need "future proofing" due to the amount of empty non-ALR and semi-suburban ALR land, but there is very little on the South Delta side to develop. Richmond is expected to expand dramatically, but its traffic is also split onto the Alex Fraser.

http://sfb.nathanpachal.com/2016/08/provinces-own-numbers-show-massey.html

"Traffic volume through the Massey Tunnel has been declining over the last decade. There was less traffic going through the Massey Tunnel in 2014 on average than in 2003.

The Ministry of Transportation’s “independent” traffic model shows that a tolled crossing would drop traffic to a level not seen since the 1980s. TransLink numbers show an even stepper decline in traffic."

10 lanes is overkill... The tolled George Massey would hit 2014 levels of usage at around 2037.

Hopefully they toll the Alex Fraser, as well- that would mitigate this, but still. I just find the demand needs are doubtful. There is no land for urbanization or even industry in Delta and the only way for Richmond to grow is up- making it prime area for transit.

Even if they eventually expand the North Arm Bridges as well... (I hope) Are they planning to remove ALR land to support more development around it?

This argument is better constructed, and I can see where you are coming from.

First, there is no plan to release any land from the ALR for development.

While not much can develop around the highway itself, the destinations it will serve will (South Surrey, White Rock, areas of Delta). Then also remember that this route connects much of the Metro area to te US border, and the ferries. On the the reverse it connects much of the metro to YVR.

With that being said I personally believe that an 8 lane bridge would be enough.

Also region wide tolling is now starting to be discussed.

[flipper316]

here we are its almost February. Any news on when construction will start. You'd think they would want to start around spring or something to take advantage of the nice weather. Why does every project in BC take so long to get started?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by flipper316

here we are its almost February. Any news on when construction will start. You'd think they would want to start around spring or something to take advantage of the nice weather. Why does every project in BC take so long to get started?

Didn't LeftCoaster post on this thread that he heard it would start construction in the fall?

And I don't think they take any longer in BC than they do anywhere else. Consultation and environmental assessments take up the bulk amount of time of pre-construction and they exist across the country.

[Metro-One]

Pre-loading contracts just went out for tender I believe.

Honestly this project feels like it may be going through pretty quick from its initial introduction.