The future of Ottawa's Transit

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Horus

I'm not saying the train-to-train connection as suggested would assuredly be faster, but I don't think it's substantially longer either, and would likely be more reliable.

There is also the not-insignificant factor, too often overlooked, of how a transit service feels.

Starting or ending your day on a smooth-running train, crossing the Ottawa River across the broad PoW bridge crossing, with views of the river, the cities, the sun rising (or setting), the changing of the seasons, would make a huge impact on how using transit feels.

Or you could take the route that is alleged to be shorter, in time or distance, or if you're lucky, both, by busing it across Chaudière, in harsh mixed traffic, through a less-than-scenic built environment, on a jerking, swerving, turning bus, often with a jerking swerving driver behind the wheel who is inconscient of how his or her driving habits affect the passengers they are transporting.

I know which route I'd be using, even if it did take one more rail stop coming from the east to access it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Horus

Would it be that big of a detour though? Presumably, if your destination were Chaudière or Portage, you would take Confederation line to Pimisi and transfer to a bus to cross via Booth/Eddy.

Actually according to the preliminary plans that were published, you would take Confederation line to Lyon and transfer to the new route 8 across the Portage Bridge. As compared to that, the POW bridge would be a considerable detour, especially for Portage (about 3km extra).

The current routing is a little wonky though so I am hopeful it will change. Rather than have 2 routes extend to serve Hull (the 8 and 85), instead have 1 route dedicated to Hull that runs from a downtown LRT station (either Lyon or Rideau) cross over to Hull using an eastern bridge (either Alexandria or Portage), loop around, and then cross back using the Chaudière Bridge to Pimisi and Bayview (for a direct connection to the Trillium line). It then does the same thing again in reverse.

Optimally this would be a joint effort by STO and OC Transpo to provide consistent, frequent cross river service, especially outside of peak periods.

[swimmer_spe]

In Toronto people regularly travel the 4 km down to Union from the Bloor line.

Bayview is about 3km to the Parliament Buildings.

I think that if the Trillium line crossed the river on the POW and if it were to go along the route of the current Rapibus BRT, the Rapibus would be cancelled, and the ridership would most definitely take the Trillium line.

Bayview would likely need a revamp to take the traffic. They coudl use the POW bridge with a single track to start and build a new bridge beside it. They could even build a 2 track bridge beside it and then convert the POW into a bikeway/walkway.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We are adding a couple of extra km to a commute, the single track will limit frequency and a fairly tight turn on the Quebec side will slow down trains.

What is the advantage of delivering slower service just so that it is on trains?

I very specifically said that I would only support a Trillium extension into downtown Hull if the line was doubled tracked first.

I agree that a single track extension is a non-starter.

A proper electric LRT, though, will be much faster than the existing bus even with having to ride one stop further west. Keep in mind the travel time between Pimisi and Bayview on the Confederation Line will literally only take a minute.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Actually according to the preliminary plans that were published, you would take Confederation line to Lyon and transfer to the new route 8 across the Portage Bridge. As compared to that, the POW bridge would be a considerable detour, especially for Portage (about 3km extra)

The bus route from Lyon will be very slow due to the awkward turns that bus route will have to make.

I'm not a fan of the city's proposal to have one bus route to Hull from Lyon and the other from Pimisi. If the city had both routes from Pimisi, everyone would wait at Pimisi and they could just get on whichever bus comes first. With the current proposal people will have to pick only one of the routes to wait for, effectively doubling the wait for the bus.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The bus route from Lyon will be very slow due to the awkward turns that bus route will have to make.

As I said. The exact routing needs to be fixed. The problem is they are trying to shoehorn a hull extension on the current route 4. The awkward turns can be removed by not doing that.

I'm not a fan of the city's proposal to have one bus route to Hull from Lyon and the other from Pimisi.

Agreed. It should be one Frequent route that serves Hull from both Pimisi/Bayview and one or more downtown stations.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

They coudl use the POW bridge with a single track to start and build a new bridge beside it. They could even build a 2 track bridge beside it and then convert the POW into a bikeway/walkway.

No need to build a new bridge. The POW bridge was designed to support the weight of Steam Locomotives and Freight trains. The LRT trains are considerably lighter and it should be possible to cantilever a second track off one side and a recreational path off the other (similar to the Alexandra Bridge).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

No need to build a new bridge. The POW bridge was designed to support the weight of Steam Locomotives and Freight trains. The LRT trains are considerably lighter and it should be possible to cantilever a second track off one side and a recreational path off the other (similar to the Alexandra Bridge).

Well, even single track, it is the same line that the Rapibus follows. Run it single line as the build the cantilevers.

OC Transpo and STO really should merge under one transit authority.

[swimmer_spe]

Switching tracks a bit here, but, what would you suggest as the top thing(s) that if the funding were made available that should be done.

My top 3:

1) Extend the Trillium line to Gatineau. Even single tracked, have it go to where the Rapibus is. Add passing tracks, or have all stations be double tracked.

2) Convert all Transitways inside the Greenbelt to LRT. This would boost the overall coverage of the LRT and would densify those neighbourhoods.

3) Put a line under Bank and extend it beyond the river into Aylmer This would give both Downtown Ottawa and Gatineau 2 lines going through downtown, as well as provide some relief at Bayview.

If these were done within 20 years after Stage 2 is complete, this would greatly help to transform the city, and the overall area it to a better moving city.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I very specifically said that I would only support a Trillium extension into downtown Hull if the line was doubled tracked first.

I agree that a single track extension is a non-starter.

I'm not so sure. I think between the two mainland terrestrial portions, plus the surprisingly long part on Lemieux Island, that doubling the lines on the bridges is not necessary at the outset, even if desirable.

With the current proposal people will have to pick only one of the routes to wait for, effectively doubling the wait for the bus.

The forced-pick-a-route is also a big part of the current suckitude of local service downtown. You can pick the locals that serve Rideau or the MK bridge, but can't wait for both. End result: longer portions of one's life wasted waiting for a bus.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'm not so sure. I think between the two mainland terrestrial portions, plus the surprisingly long part on Lemieux Island, that doubling the lines on the bridges is not necessary at the outset, even if desirable.

While you could put a siding on Lemieux Island, personally I think it would be too close to Bayview to be all that useful.

I did some back of the napkin math and assuming you had two routes (one to Portage-Terrasses and one to Alexandre-Taché-UQO), you could have two trains (one to each destination) every 8-10 minutes using single track as follows (times in minutes and seconds).

0:00 train A would depart Bayview for Portage-Terrasses.
0:45 train B would depart Bayview for Alexandre-Taché-UQO
2:55 train A would arrive at Portage-Terrasses
2:55 train B would arrive at Alexandre-Taché-UQO
4:00 train A would depart Portage-Terrasses for Bayview
4:00 train B would depart Alexandre-Taché-UQO for Bayview
6:10 train B would arrive at Bayview
6:55 train A would arrive at Bayview
8:00 It starts all over again.

Assumptions:

• Average speed: 50 km/h
• Distance from Bayview to Alexandre-Taché-UQO: 1.8 km
• Distance from Bayview to Portage-Terrasses: 2.4 km
• 45 seconds is sufficient for a train to pass a switch and for it to be thrown before the next train arrives at the switch.

This would require 2 platforms at Bayview (one for each destination). If my assumptions aren't correct, additional delays could be added.

[Uhuniau]

Nice work! Thanks for showing it.

[rocketphish]

Ottawa, Gatineau mayors talking 'seamless' transit system

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: January 19, 2017 | Last Updated: January 19, 2017 5:46 PM EST

The mayors of Ottawa and Gatineau are working together in an unprecedented fashion to ensure there’s a “more seamless” transit system for passengers once Ottawa’s Confederation LRT line opens next year.

Ottawa Mayor Jim Watson and his Gatineau counterpart Maxime Pedneaud-Jobin have convened two meetings with the heads of each city’s transit service to discuss transfer points and the presence of STO buses on Ottawa roads.

“We don’t want to remove all of our buses on Slater and Albert just to have them replaced with STO buses, but at the same time, STO obviously has a lot of customers that need to go to places and we want to make sure there’s room for them to use some of the road space,” Watson said.

Standing beside Pedneaud-Jobin after Thursday’s NCC board meeting, Watson said the pair hope to announce in the next few weeks “what we’ve been able to accomplish working together.”

“We want to try to do our best to make sure that when people are going across the river on transit, their points of contact and transfer are most helpful and efficient,” Watson said.

The two cities have distinct systems — Ottawa is proceeding with light rail and Gatineau has the Rapibus — but there is an “opportunity for us to help each other,” Watson said.

Though a regional, integrated approach to transit planning may be the dream of many, Watson said the fact Ottawa and Gatineau are two different cities in two different provinces poses a huge hurdle.

There is, however, continued interest in the future use of the Prince of Wales bridge from both sides.

The bridge is owned by the City of Ottawa, which would eventually like to use it as an interprovincial rail link, connecting OC Transpo’s Trillium line with Gatineau’s rapid transit bus network.

The city needs an estimated $75-100 million to upgrade the bridge for rail, based on preliminary estimates, part of which Watson said he hopes to lobby the provincial and federal governments for once funding from both levels of government for the second phase of LRT has been secured.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-gatineau-mayors-talking-seamless-transit-system

[Horus]

http://pdovak.com/mini-metro-maps/

Look at us, playing the big leagues with Porto Alegre, Hefei, Fuzhou, Bochum, Bergamo, Kazan, Samara and Dnipro!

Watch out Izmir, you're next!

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Horus

http://pdovak.com/mini-metro-maps/

Look at us, playing the big leagues with Porto Alegre, Hefei, Fuzhou, Bochum, Bergamo, Kazan, Samara and Dnipro!

Watch out Izmir, you're next!

Love it! Luckily Ottawa is ahead of some based on km per 1000 population. lol

[eltodesukane]

Yea, we're getting there..

[nredding]

The population of Seoul is 10 million, versus 1 million for Ottawa.

[Kitchissippi]

Next year

[OTSkyline]

Would be interesting to see how the # of km of rail/subway per (let's say) 1,000,000 residents.

Sure Seoul might have 10X the population of Ottawa, but do they have 20X the rail infrastructure?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Would be interesting to see how the # of km of rail/subway per (let's say) 1,000,000 residents.

Sure Seoul might have 10X the population of Ottawa, but do they have 20X the rail infrastructure?

Wikipedia says 1,097.3 km (although there is a question about the citation)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seoul_Metropolitan_Subway

[Aylmer]

Although that metric may penalize cities which are more compact since they require fewer kms of rail vs cities which are more spread out. A more informative (but much more complicated) metric might be the percentage of the population within x km of heavy rail.