Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[GreaterMontréal]

ostik, calvince, câline, câlik, câlibouêre, crissti, tabarnik, tabarnouche, tabarnane, tabarslack, tabarouette, tabouêre,.....

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This was in the francophone media a bit last week. Not too much that's surprising in there, except maybe the stark difference on the issue of whether French is "endangered":

The survey found 74 per cent of French-speaking Canadians think French is threatened, compared with only 34 per cent of anglophones.

There was no significant difference between bilingual anglophones (35 per cent) and unilingual anglophones (34 per cent) on whether French is threatened in Canada.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/local-...ely+value+linguistic/12667096/story.html

Oh yeah, and this article doesn't mention it but it was reported that the survey found that around half of Canadian anglophones thought French wasn't the most useful second language for them to learn, and that they'd prefer Mandarin or Spanish.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I don't find that result surprising - for the majority of Canadian Anglophones, there would be no "resonance" to a question like that - the fallback response would be "no" because there is nothing in their experience that would lead them to "yes" (many would likely never have given it a thought until the question was asked). In fact, to the extent that they've formed an impression of Quebec via the media's coverage of Quebec, and of federal politics, the "no" would likely be reinforced.

Exactly. Quite frankly, I'm amazed that that the percentage of unilingual anglophones answering "yes" was that high. I know we've talked about this before, but it's worth repeating: people living in Quebec and along the border in places like Ottawa seem to forget that once you get past Kingston on the 401 the French language and Quebec become these vague abstractions that occupy little to no space in the consciousness of people in southern Ontario and parts west (save for the notable exception of St. Boniface in Winnipeg). In fact, I'd venture to guess that what little people here do know about Quebec probably maxes out in the words Bill 101 and poutine, i.e. they take great pains to protect their language and culture in Quebec and they eat french fries with cheese and gravy. Big people know this, too.

This would also explain why Chinese and Spanish would come to mind as more useful second languages.

I daresay that most of the "yes" responders would consist of a small contingent of anglophones somewhat more aware of their national surroundings and a much larger group of people influenced by the context of the question (i.e. "if they've gone to the trouble to go out and ask people if they think French is endangered, I imagine it must be").

[lio45]

Originally Posted by rousseau

I daresay that most of the "no" responders would consist of a small contingent of anglophones somewhat more aware of their national surroundings and a much larger group of people influenced by the context of the question (i.e. "if they've gone to the trouble to go out and ask people if they think French is endangered, I imagine it must be").

Actually, how could unlingual anglophones in southern Ontario or Western Canada possibly be in a position to answer that question? You might as well ask them if the Polish language is currently under threat in Lithuania or not. They'll have to flip a coin to answer yes/no... and the data will be worthless.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by lio45

Actually, how could unlingual anglophones in southern Ontario or Western Canada possibly be in a position to answer that question? You might as well ask them if the Polish language is currently under threat in Lithuania or not. They'll have to flip a coin to answer yes/no... and the data will be worthless.

Oops, in the part you quoted I should have put "yes," not "no."

But yeah, unilingual anglophones wouldn't be able to judge first hand, and it's unlikely that they'd be paying close enough attention to reports in English about the status of French in Quebec to have a handle on it.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Oops, in the part you quoted I should have put "yes," not "no."

But yeah, unilingual anglophones wouldn't be able to judge first hand, and it's unlikely that they'd be paying close enough attention to reports in English about the status of French in Quebec to have a handle on it.

And, to the extent they were attentive to English media, they'd assume that French in Quebec has long been ascendant there, hence my earlier "never been stronger" comment. And I doubt you would ever see coverage of stories like "you can't speak French on the Canadian national junior hockey team", as you do in French media.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

And, to the extent they were attentive to English media, they'd assume that French in Quebec has long been ascendant there, hence my earlier "never been stronger" comment. And I doubt you would ever see coverage of stories like "you can't speak French on the Canadian national junior hockey team", as you do in French media.

When they are aware of stuff like that, I suspect it's generally viewed as francophones being unreasonable or whiny.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Exactly. Quite frankly, I'm amazed that that the percentage of unilingual anglophones answering "yes" was that high. I know we've talked about this before, but it's worth repeating: people living in Quebec and along the border in places like Ottawa seem to forget that once you get past Kingston on the 401 the French language and Quebec become these vague abstractions that occupy little to no space in the consciousness of people in southern Ontario and parts west (save for the notable exception of St. Boniface in Winnipeg). In fact, I'd venture to guess that what little people here do know about Quebec probably maxes out in the words Bill 101 and poutine, i.e. they take great pains to protect their language and culture in Quebec and they eat french fries with cheese and gravy. Big people know this, too.

This would also explain why Chinese and Spanish would come to mind as more useful second languages.

I daresay that most of the "yes" responders would consist of a small contingent of anglophones somewhat more aware of their national surroundings and a much larger group of people influenced by the context of the question (i.e. "if they've gone to the trouble to go out and ask people if they think French is endangered, I imagine it must be").

I agree that Quebec and French are far off the radar in most of the country but it's still this pebble that you have in your shoe that periodically gets released from a corner (where it's been innocuous) and ends up under the middle of your foot and annoys you for a while. Before it gets shuffled back into a corner of the shoe so you can forget it's there again.

As a result I assume that most people do have at least a vague idea that separatism, Bill 101, etc. are at least partly related to some form of linguistic anxiety.

So even though most may not think the motivations are justified, reasonable or even sincere, I'd be very surprised if the average non-ignorant person in Calgary or Antigonish didn't at least have some idea that the language issue is a "concern" in Quebec.

Even if they don't think about it every day.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

[/U][/B]
When they are aware of stuff like that, I suspect it's generally viewed as francophones being unreasonable or whiny.

Well, it does raise practical issues. In a country where English speakers are far less likely to be bilingual than French speakers, it does raise the issue of whether English must always be the "default language" of groups. I admit that I have no practical answer. I suppose it would not be too much to expect a national team to offer interpretation. If I followed the recent story correctly, it seemed to be the perception that operating in more than one language would somehow impede "team building". Not being an athlete, I couldn't say, but that seemed a stretch to me.

[toaster]

I enjoyed reading the last few pages. I grew up in North-Eastern Ontario, and consider the use of English by Francophones a means to use continue speaking French (French pride) but mixed with words that are not used often, spoken in English. Common words and expressions will always be spoken in French, but the less common words are spoken in English because they simply don't know the word or can't recall it quickly as they are speaking, so opt just to say it in English.



A distinction I've found between Northern Ontario and Southern Ontario is the way prepositions "à/de/pour" are used differently. "C'est le livre de Sara" in the North, and in the south "C'est le livre à Sara", "Le frère de John" "Le frère à John".

"J'ai besoin de ça de m'aider avec..." "J'ai besoin de (pronounced ded) ça pour m'aider"

In fact, the "de" is often pronounced as "ded" in Northern Ontario, not sure if this is also in Quebec. "Loin de(d) là""


I'm also curious, in Northern Ontario we used to say "Avoird besoin" (avoir de besoin said quickly) "Que C "qutad" besoin" , but I notice the "d" sound is omitted in Southern Ontario.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Well, it does raise practical issues. In a country where English speakers are far less likely to be bilingual than French speakers, it does raise the issue of whether English must always be the "default language" of groups. I admit that I have no practical answer. I suppose it would not be too much to expect a national team to offer interpretation. If I followed the recent story correctly, it seemed to be the perception that operating in more than one language would somehow impede "team building". Not being an athlete, I couldn't say, but that seemed a stretch to me.

There is a difference between the operating language of the team (English quite logically) and forbidding francophone players from speaking French amongst themselves. On the latter point there seems to be a discrepancy between what the player Julien Gauthier reported, and the denials from coaches that they weren't allowed to speak French.

It's worth noting that the player (Gauthier) who raised this issue is not from Chicoutimi or Baie-Comeau. He's a Montrealer.

Another thing is that in my younger years I was fortunate to attend several NHL games fairly close to the ice. It was fairly common to hear francophone and European players talk to each other in their language on the ice and on the bench.

As an aside, the Edmonton Oilers Finnish player Esa Tikkanen in particular was quite the piece of work, and seemed to have an endless repertoire of vulgarities and insults in a multitude of languages, including French, Russian, Swedish, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

I enjoyed reading the last few pages. I grew up in North-Eastern Ontario, and consider the use of English by Francophones a means to use continue speaking French (French pride) but mixed with words that are not used often, spoken in English. Common words and expressions will always be spoken in French, but the less common words are spoken in English because they simply don't know the word or can't recall it quickly as they are speaking, so opt just to say it in English.



A distinction I've found between Northern Ontario and Southern Ontario is the way prepositions "à/de/pour" are used differently. "C'est le livre de Sara" in the North, and in the south "C'est le livre à Sara", "Le frère de John" "Le frère à John".

"J'ai besoin de ça de m'aider avec..." "J'ai besoin de (pronounced ded) ça pour m'aider"

In fact, the "de" is often pronounced as "ded" in Northern Ontario, not sure if this is also in Quebec. "Loin de(d) là""


I'm also curious, in Northern Ontario we used to say "Avoird besoin" (avoir de besoin said quickly) "Que C "qutad" besoin" , but I notice the "d" sound is omitted in Southern Ontario.

All of these expressions and turns of phrase do exist in Quebec and in fact, almost certainly originated there.

Some of them would be considered archaic, or at least unbecoming of people of a certain social class in Quebec. Even though middle and upper class people in Quebec still use some colloquial Québécois expressions, they can be selective in what those are. There are certain things that people in Quebec just don't say anymore if they are educated - even though there may be thousands of people in their own city who would say it.

The pervasive presence of French in Quebec (vs. say, Timmins or Cornwall) has led to different levels of language depending on the circumstance here, and this type of nuance does not always exist in Franco-Ontarian communities.

For example, the francophone loans manager at a bank branch in Timmins will likely use way more colloquial French than the loans manager in Rouyn-Noranda.

My kids who have grown up in Quebec often find that their Franco-Ontarian relatives talk like people used to talk "in the old days".

(Funnily enough, this is what people from France often say about Québécois speech - that it's old fashioned.)

[Acajack]

Still with this.

40 or 50 years ago, a Quebec TV program broadcast an interview with Franco-American beat generation legend Jack Kerouac in French. Kerouac was born in Lowell, Mass., of Québécois parents. He grew up speaking French at home. Most people watching were shocked at how he spoke, because to them he sounded like a backwoods lumberjack from the 19th century.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r2aOSoRsoE

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As an aside, the Edmonton Oilers Finnish player Esa Tikkanen in particular was quite the piece of work, and seemed to have an endless repertoire of vulgarities and insults in a multitude of languages, including French, Russian, Swedish, etc.

That sounds about right. I could imagine him taking university language classes in the off-season in an effort to become a better on-ice pest.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As an aside, the Edmonton Oilers Finnish player Esa Tikkanen in particular was quite the piece of work, and seemed to have an endless repertoire of vulgarities and insults in a multitude of languages, including French, Russian, Swedish, etc.

Modern day example of this would be Leo Komarov on the Maple Leafs. Born to Russian parents in Estonia, moved to Swedish-speaking town in Finland when he was younger. Speaks Russian, Swedish, Finnish, English, and presumably some Estonian.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by Acajack

All of these expressions and turns of phrase do exist in Quebec and in fact, almost certainly originated there.

Some of them would be considered archaic, or at least unbecoming of people of a certain social class in Quebec. Even though middle and upper class people in Quebec still use some colloquial Québécois expressions, they can be selective in what those are. There are certain things that people in Quebec just don't say anymore if they are educated - even though there may be thousands of people in their own city who would say it.

The pervasive presence of French in Quebec (vs. say, Timmins or Cornwall) has led to different levels of language depending on the circumstance here, and this type of nuance does not always exist in Franco-Ontarian communities.

For example, the francophone loans manager at a bank branch in Timmins will likely use way more colloquial French than the loans manager in Rouyn-Noranda.

My kids who have grown up in Quebec often find that their Franco-Ontarian relatives talk like people used to talk "in the old days".

(Funnily enough, this is what people from France often say about Québécois speech - that it's old fashioned.)

Interesting. I think part of it, too, is to appear authentic. If I can speak colloquial French, I'm "French", not someone who learned it as an adult or as a second language. I think in English majority speaking communities, there is pride in French colloquialisms. Speaking French "fluently" (i.e., how the native speakers - to a particular region) is of more "intellectual value" than to speak "hyper-formal" French. In fact, there was a study by Markopolous at the University of Ottawa who suggested French immersion should get away from the hyper-formal French, and toward a more colloquial French,.

I am aware that I use many of these colloquialisms, purposely, when I moved to Southern Ontario. I find it gives me legitimacy, particularly here. Same thing goes with pronouncing my "Hs" (J'ai hate.. En haut, etc). It's almost more self-aware to understand they may be perceived as being incorrect, but it's when you get to explain it, and get into a discussion, where you get to understand language, and can appreciate the different vernaculars.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by toaster

Interesting. I think part of it, too, is to appear authentic. If I can speak colloquial French, I'm "French", not someone who learned it as an adult or as a second language. I think in English majority speaking communities, there is pride in French colloquialisms. Speaking French "fluently" (i.e., how the native speakers - to a particular region) is of more "intellectual value" than to speak "hyper-formal" French. In fact, there was a study by Markopolous at the University of Ottawa who suggested French immersion should get away from the hyper-formal French, and toward a more colloquial French,.

I am aware that I use many of these colloquialisms, purposely, when I moved to Southern Ontario. I find it gives me legitimacy, particularly here. Same thing goes with pronouncing my "Hs" (J'ai hate.. En haut, etc). It's almost more self-aware to understand they may be perceived as being incorrect, but it's when you get to explain it, and get into a discussion, where you get to understand language, and can appreciate the different vernaculars.

Interesting post. I haven't thought about this in years but now that you mention it, I did this as well at one point in my youth: using really slangy French in order to give myself "crew" and authenticity. (I guess.)

[Xelebes]

A political/contribution contribution:

What's the French word for doggone (far)?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

A political/contribution contribution:

What's the French word for doggone (far)?

Doggone doesn't mean "far" to me. It's a soft replacement for "damned" isn't it?

I'd say "fichu".

[Xelebes]

The phrase "doggone far" comes from the common story of a dog running afar such that the dog can't be retrieved. "Doggone" can also be a minced oath of "—", yes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Xelebes

The phrase "doggone far" comes from the common story of a dog running afar such that the dog can't be retrieved. "Doggone" can also be a minced oath of "—", yes.

In that case, I'd say "vachement loin".

If I wanted to be slangy, I'd say "crissement loin".