YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[trofirhen]

Just got back early today from NZ. Auckland airport, built 1966 and about the scale of the original YVR 1968 terminal, nevertheless has 17m pax/year at last count and big-time plans.
Busy, noisy arrivals level but pleasant departure level.
They foresee making the airport into a major hub with an ambitious 40m pax.
They even talk about connecting South America and Asia, so could be a real competito to yvr for that market. A good one to watch.
https://www.aucklandairport.co.nz/downloads/aial-masterplan.pdf
if anyone is interested.
Surprising parallels to YVRmaster plan, this one written in 2013.

§ Shanghai was exactly the way it gets written up: vaultlike building with a deadness to it, pierced by intermittent announcements; enormously understaffed with long long lineups.
The jaunt into the city centre made it all worthwhile, though. Surprised at not only Cartier and Tiffany, etc, but Van Cleef, Salvatore Ferragamo, etc, and a big APPLE store.

[WhyVeeAre]

Long time reader, first time poster. Why does it seem like Delta has a big presence here when they have a hub in Seattle? Wouldn't it seem logical just to funnel passengers to Seattle frequently?

On another note, with the challenges of the new terminal in Calgary, could WestJet be eyeing more flights in/out of Vancouver and beefing up their presence?

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Just got back early today from NZ. Auckland airport, built 1966 and about the scale of the original YVR 1968 terminal, nevertheless has 17m pax/year at last count and big-time plans.
Busy, noisy arrivals level but pleasant departure level.
They foresee making the airport into a major hub with an ambitious 40m pax.

The Christchurch airport is a real stunner in my opinion
Real clean layout. I think it's the 2nd busiest airport in NZ.

Auckland has two terminals btw. Intl and Domestic. I did see Lan Chile there in Auckland while I was there

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

The Christchurch airport is a real stunner in my opinion
Real clean layout. I think it's the 2nd busiest airport in NZ.

Auckland has two terminals btw. Intl and Domestic. I did see Lan Chile there in Auckland while I was there

Never made it to Christchurch, which is too bad, as my grandmother was from there.
I did use the Auckland domestic terminal, though, when I flew up from Blenheim to Auckland, going home.
* Checked out connecting distances from several major Asian cities to South America via AKL, then via YVR.
AKL beats YVR for SCL, EZE, maybe GRU in some cases.
Vancouver is closer to CHA and everything north. Interesting to see what AKL has in plan. Big time.

[excel]

Originally Posted by WhyVeeAre

Long time reader, first time poster. Why does it seem like Delta has a big presence here when they have a hub in Seattle? Wouldn't it seem logical just to funnel passengers to Seattle frequently?

On another note, with the challenges of the new terminal in Calgary, could WestJet be eyeing more flights in/out of Vancouver and beefing up their presence?

Welcome to the forum!

Delta's codeshare market in YVR is strong:
Aeromexico
Air France
China Airlines
China Southern
China Eastern
KLM
WestJet

None of these airlines fly to SEA so YVR is key for connections.

YYC's new terminal will likely have minimal effect on the routes WestJet chooses to fly.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

The 4th weekly that was "lost" from DUB was on Monday, it probably goes to the 4th weekly on NGO, which also run on Monday

The new weekly gained for KIX is on Wednesday. Currently the plane used for KIX flies to PVR on Wednesday, and that flight still exist as of now.

So to run that extra flight, AC would either have a new plane, or we'll end up losing PVR on AC soon...

Yeah... the big rouge mystery continues... I am pretty sure there is still one piece of metal unaccounted for... perfect to launch two thrice weekly flights.

Yes, PVR is still in there on Wednesdays... a very odd day to fly there obviously was just using up what otherwise would have been an idle plane...

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by WhyVeeAre

Long time reader, first time poster. Why does it seem like Delta has a big presence here when they have a hub in Seattle? Wouldn't it seem logical just to funnel passengers to Seattle frequently?

Each of Delta's hubs has a specific market so by having flights to each of them offers many options. SEA's DL hub is still relatively very small compared to ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC etc....

YVR-JFK and YVR-LAX are also targeting larger O&D markets. But both have significant DL operations for hubbing purposes too.

YVR-MSP, YVR-SLC, YVR-DTW and YVR-ATL are far more connection oriented and each one has a niche market area that is covered.... with some overlap of course. SEA is used for its decent western US network and its limited European and Asian network.

So funnelling EVERYTHING through SEA would not be the best way to market themselves in YVR... you are right though DL definitely has a decent presence in YVR again.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by excel

Welcome to the forum!

Delta's codeshare market in YVR is strong:
Aeromexico
Air France
China Airlines
China Southern
China Eastern
KLM
WestJet

None of these airlines fly to SEA so YVR is key for connections.

YYC's new terminal will likely have minimal effect on the routes WestJet chooses to fly.

Yay! That's the sort of stuff I like. Thanx.
On another note, I wonder how many routes are planned for the future.
An old question, but I think valid:
what are some possible new destinations for YVR?
I think only Johnny could, answer that, and he'd just say:
[sit back and see for yourself.]
Cool that YVR is holding its own well against Seattle too, it seems.

[WhyVeeAre]

Originally Posted by excel

Welcome to the forum!

Delta's codeshare market in YVR is strong:
Aeromexico
Air France
China Airlines
China Southern
China Eastern
KLM
WestJet

None of these airlines fly to SEA so YVR is key for connections.

YYC's new terminal will likely have minimal effect on the routes WestJet chooses to fly.

Thanks for the welcome! That's something I definitely overlooked. Thank you!

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Each of Delta's hubs has a specific market so by having flights to each of them offers many options. SEA's DL hub is still relatively very small compared to ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC etc....SEA is used for its decent western US network and its limited European and Asian network.

So funnelling EVERYTHING through SEA would not be the best way to market themselves in YVR... you are right though DL definitely has a decent presence in YVR again.

It's interesting that YVR has such a strong SkyTeam footing given that SEA (however small) is a hub for DL, and (even though they aren't a full member) YYC is a WS hub. It'll be interesting to watch how things progress over the coming years as Air Canada inevitably boosts the Star Alliance strength here.

[excel]

Originally Posted by WhyVeeAre

Thanks for the welcome! That's something I definitely overlooked. Thank you!

It's interesting that YVR has such a strong SkyTeam footing given that SEA (however small) is a hub for DL, and (even though they aren't a full member) YYC is a WS hub. It'll be interesting to watch how things progress over the coming years as Air Canada inevitably boosts the Star Alliance strength here.

Keep in mind that SEA has a huge amount of domestic traffic and doesn't have that much available capacity remaining for foreign airlines. Therefore it is more expensive than YVR to get a slot. For comparison sake there is a total of 15 foreign airlines that operate out of SEA. YVR almost has double the amount at 28 yet SEA still doubles us in passenger totals.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Never made it to Christchurch, which is too bad, as my grandmother was from there.
I did use the Auckland domestic terminal, though, when I flew up from Blenheim to Auckland, going home.
* Checked out connecting distances from several major Asian cities to South America via AKL, then via YVR.
AKL beats YVR for SCL, EZE, maybe GRU in some cases.
Vancouver is closer to CHA and everything north. Interesting to see what AKL has in plan. Big time.

If AKL is counting on South America - East Asia to make it to 40 million passengers, i hope they have a plan B !

North America and even Europe are better placed to capture 90%+ of that market. AKL is only at play from one Pacific rim country in South America (and maybe Argentina, since NZ already flies there), and only to a select number of destinations in Asia.

I do like their master plan though. A proper parallel runway, and in between, a proper (single) terminal building, a concept that has eluded Australia and NZ thus far, making it easier for connections from domestic to international and vice versa.

Now, as soon as they start driving on the right side of the road, we'll call it progress !

[Hot Rod]

^ Lots more domestic connecting pax in SEA vs. YVR. USA domestic market is also XX % larger than Canadian domestic market - so total pax # isn't an accurate comparison.

CASE IN POINT -> SEA also has the same total pax as YYZ (Toronto Pearson), but I'd argue that YYZ is a much larger, better served WW market than SEA by far. Like Vancouver (which is also much better connected than SEA), YYZ just happens to have less domestic connecting pax and routes/frequencies. ...

[thenoflyzone]

Both YVR and SEA benefit from the fact that they are ideally placed to capture a good chunk of North America- East Asia traffic. On that aspect, they are the same.

SEA is disadvantaged in the fact that it competes with LAX as the main west coast hub for DL. (MSP's Asian flights don't help either)

AC doesn't have that problem, and has clearly shown that it is focusing on YVR as it's main west coast hub, relegating YYC to a domestic focus city operation. If DL were to have a single west coast hub, SEA would see much more Asian flights than it currently does.

As for foreign airlines, it's simple really. It can be summed up with one word. Demographics.

YVR is Canada's third largest city. An important tourism/business center with a huge East Asian/South Asian population (40% of total, almost 1 million people).
SEA is only the 15th largest US city with a relatively small Asian population base (14%) and probably less tourism traffic than YVR. All the corporate biggies they have won't change that fact, and won't necessarily help attract foreign airlines.

What else is there to say really...

[mezzanine]

SEA is several steps behind YVR with terminal improvements and really will be hamstrung (definitely with timely and smooth intl transfers) until they are finally built in ? 2-4 yrs time.

Speaking of terminals, Craig Richmond will be giving his talk in 2 days about YVR expansion plans.

Interesting to note that DL recently announced several new domestic routes to add to potential TPAC transfers, not unlike AC and YVR.

[Hot Rod]

It's not just DL at SEA (vs. LAX) but Alaska which is SeaTac's biggest airline by far and largest source of connecting pax and always has been; SEA competes with YVR, SFO, and (to a much lesser extent) PDX. If SEA didn't have Alaska Airlines then the total numbers would be far lesser - I recon to between 25-30MM pax per year considering the market.

YVR is Canada's 3rd city and the west's largest, and main pacific gateway and has large immigrant communities and strong business ties to Asia (than SEA). This is why YVR has always been a larger "Intercontinental" airport despite having quite low connecting pax. YVR has always had the lead here, by far.

No doubt that SEA is a larger domestic hub with two domestic hub ops (one relative fortress hub) where YVR (despite being a major hub for Air Canada) is and likely will not be.

This could change if Westjet increases its presence to hub status (ala near Alaska Airlines at SEA); one would expect a surge in pax as they would be double counted (arriving then departing). Could also change with twov and/or more international to international connections; (which lately seem to be just same plane direct flights, which I imagine pax continuing on do not get double counted). ..

[casper]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

It's not just DL at SEA (vs. LAX) but Alaska which is SeaTac's biggest airline by far and largest source of connecting pax and always has been; SEA competes with YVR, SFO, and (to a much lesser extent) PDX. If SEA didn't have Alaska Airlines then the total numbers would be far lesser - I recon to 30MM pax per year.

YVR is Canada's 3rd city and the west's largest, and main pacific gateway and has large immigrant communities and strong business ties to Asia (than SEA). This is why YVR has always been a larger "Intercontinental" airport despite having quite low connecting pax. YVR has always had the lead here, by far.

No doubt that SEA is a larger domestic hub with two domestic hub ops (one relative fortress hub) where YVR (despite being a major hub for Air Canada) is and likely will not be.

This could change if Westjet increases its presence to hub status (ala near Alaska Airlines at SEA); one would expect a surge in pax as they would be double counted (arriving then departing). Could also change with twov and/or more international to international connections; (which lately seem to be just same plane direct flights, which I imagine pax continuing on do not get double counted). ..

Seattle also serves as a main transit point for traffic in and out of the state of Alaska. Having another country (Canada) separating Alaska from the rest of the US drives quite a bit of air travel.

For domestic traffic Vancouver is not a great hub. With exception of Vancouver Island and some of the smaller communities in BC there is not a strong motivation for Vancouver to be a major domestic hub.

[YVR Bruce]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

This could change ........ one would expect a surge in pax as they would be double counted (arriving then departing). Could also change with two and/or more international to international connections; (which lately seem to be just same plane direct flights, which I imagine pax continuing on do not get double counted). ..

I thought the established ACI counting regime allowed each O/D passenger to be counted as one, but transferring PX counted as one - for both legs (in & out).

[thenoflyzone]

ICAO counting method means a connecting passenger counts for 2.

[nname]

Originally Posted by casper

Seattle also serves as a main transit point for traffic in and out of the state of Alaska. Having another country (Canada) separating Alaska from the rest of the US drives quite a bit of air travel.

For domestic traffic Vancouver is not a great hub. With exception of Vancouver Island and some of the smaller communities in BC there is not a strong motivation for Vancouver to be a major domestic hub.

"not great" sounds like an understatement to me... I'd say Vancouver is a horrible hub for domestic travel outside of BC and major cities. Geography might be a reason, but for the size and traffic, YVR should have 5-7 more.

Calculating domestic destinations outside of home province (I've counted NB, PE, NS as one "province" so the geographical size is more similar, and count NU west of Hudson Bay as YZF's home), YVR is ahead of airports like Whitehorse, Saskatoon, and Regina, but behind Winnipeg and Halifax.

YYC	24	Abbotsford, Brandon, Comox, Fort St.John, Halifax, Hamilton, Kamloops, Kelowna, Kitchener, London, Nanaimo, Penticton, Montreal, Ottawa, Regina, Saskatoon, St. John's, Thunder Bay, Toronto, Vancouver, Victoria, Windsor, Winnipeg, Yellowknife
YYZ	21	Abbotsford, Calgary, Charlottetown, Deer Lake, Edmonton, Fort McMurray, Fredericton, Gander, Halifax, Kelowna, Moncton, Mont-Tremblant, Montreal, Quebec City, Regina, Saint John, Saskatoon, St. John's, Vancouver, Victoria, Winnipeg
YUL	18	Calgary, Charlottetown, Edmonton, Fredericton, Halifax, Hamilton, Iqaluit, Moncton, Ottawa, Saint John, St John's, Thunder Bay, Toronto(YYZ/YTZ), Vancouver, Wabush, Windsor, Winnipeg
YOW	17	Calgary, Charlottetown, Edmonton, Fredericton, Halifax, Iqaluit, Moncton, Montreal, Quebec City, Rankin Inlet, Regina, Saskatoon, St. John's, Vancouver, Whitehorse, Winnipeg, Yellowknife
YEG	16	Abbotsford, Comox, Halifax, Hamilton, Kelowna, Moncton, Montreal, Ottawa, Regina, Saskatoon, Toronto, Vancouver, Victoria, Whitehorse, Winnipeg, Yellowknife
YWG	13	Abbotsford, Calgary, Edmonton, Hamilton, Halifax, London, Montreal, Ottawa, Regina, Saskatoon, Thunder Bay, Toronto, Vancouver
YHZ	12	Calgary, Deer Lake, Edmonton, Gander, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, St. John's, Stephenville, Toronto(YYZ/YTZ), Winnipeg
YVR	11	Calgary, Edmonton, Fort McMurray, Hamilton, Montreal, Ottawa, Regina, Saskatoon, Toronto, Whitehorse, Winnipeg
YXY	7	Calgary, Edmonton, Inuvik, Kelowna, Ottawa, Vancouver, Yellowknife
YTZ	6	Halifax, Moncton, Montreal, Mont Tremblant, Quebec City, Saint John's
YQR	6	Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg
YXE	6	Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Toronto, Vancouver, Winnipeg
YYT	6	Calgary, Fredericton, Halifax, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto
YZF	5	Calgary, Edmonton, Iqaluit, Ottawa, Whitehorse

Note: I might miss a few cities for airports other than YVR, and this is assuming that YVR-YHZ is not coming back since it had not being announced yet. Also, airports serving both YYZ and YTZ counts as 2 destinations.

[Johnny Aussie]

Per airlineroute.net tweet.

KE bringing the 748i in earlier this summer.

Now commencing 2 May. 4 weekly until 31 May and then
daily 1 June until 28 October.