Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by MIPS

This is ooooold. This goes way the hell back before Vancouver was an option and they were still working on a demonstration line in Hamilton and a full-scale line in Los Angeles. It does also cover in an inset on page 76 that even back then the system was able to couple train sets while in active service.

Old enough that they mention SELtrac was being tested on unused parts of the Berlin subway, underneath the wall.

I know they can uncouple trains automatically, since I've heard one of the operators mention that they had to "tear [a] 6-car apart in the yard" to send one of the pairs to maintenance. I wasn't sure whether coupling was done manually by drivers in the yard or automatically, but I believe it's only supposed to happen in a particular designated area.

With our system at the size it is now, automatic coupling out on the line wouldn't serve much purpose since all the Expo Line trains are already at their maximum lengths, and the two types of Mark II vehicles on the Millennium Line can't operate coupled due to different door control systems.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

I've always wondered what the system could do that we just don't use. one of the examples was when the system had to restart they had to manually enter all the trains in, where as now they finally got the option that does it automatically. i wonder what else there is.

The "automatic restart" system was actually a lot more complicated than originally described.

From the December 2016 board report:

McNeil Recommendation 1 was for TransLink to assess ways to improve the Automatic Train Control (ATC) system recovery and operation. After initially suggesting the installation of an Auto-Restart component McNeil later confirmed (in June 2015) that available software does not meet the envisioned functionality desired.

After investigating various options with Thales, a strategy was developed to meet the objectives of Recommendation 1. TransLink will proceed with implementing a software upgrade that will add the following functionality to the ATC system, reducing the system recovery time and improving operations:

1. Avoid train timeouts from temporary loss of communications between the Vehicle Control Centre (VCC) and Vehicle On Board Controllers (VOBCs). This upgrade will allow trains to re-establish communication on its own without the need for a Station Attendant to travel to the train and drive it manually to a re-entry point.
   
2. Enable securing track switches remotely when a track switch malfunctions. This upgrade simplifies the process of confirming the track switch position in the ATC, requires less time and personnel to implement, and prevents inadvertent routing by the ATC.
   
3. Simplify process for assigning track direction, which will reduce recovery time and reduce risk of train collision as a result of human error.
   
4. Enable the ATC system to automatically confirm train lengths that are manually assigned to trains returning to revenue service after receiving regular maintenance at the OMC. This upgrade will avoid derailments and collision with trains that are assigned incorrect train lengths as a result of human error.

[...]
The Thales contract is scheduled to be finalized in January 2017, after Specific Project Approval is obtained. Software design will start in Q1 2017. The majority of the software development work is expected to be completed in 2017 with implementation to start soon thereafter.

[Migrant_Coconut]

(deleted)

[whatnext]

Wait a minute, Translink is too cheap to use snow tires on their busses?!!

When winter weather hits the Lower Mainland, buses often lose traction and slip around hill-laden city streets. Coast Mountain buses currently do not use winter tires, but employ all-season tires, better suited for wet conditions, according to a representative from the bus company.

According to Vancouver's snow removal plan, written in 2013, city staff approached the bus company about using winter tires following a 2012 snow storm, but were told it was not financially feasible...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...ansportation-parking-sidewalks-1.3917004

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Wait a minute, Translink is too cheap to use snow tires on their busses?!!

When winter weather hits the Lower Mainland, buses often lose traction and slip around hill-laden city streets. Coast Mountain buses currently do not use winter tires, but employ all-season tires, better suited for wet conditions, according to a representative from the bus company.

According to Vancouver's snow removal plan, written in 2013, city staff approached the bus company about using winter tires following a 2012 snow storm, but were told it was not financially feasible...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...ansportation-parking-sidewalks-1.3917004

Must be easy to call them cheap when you don't know the dollar figure to switch the fleet to snow tires.

Buzzer:

Hi Dave: Each fall, CMBC’s tire provider will provide sets of new tires for rotation for buses. Maintenance crew will go through each bus and change out any tires that are nearing the end of their useful life. CMBC Engineers have identified a Michelin Bus Tire as the best tire for the Metro Vancouver climate as it is rated for both mud and snow. Vancouver snow is typically very wet and will often plug up the tread on winter tires resulting in reduced traction. CMBC Michelin bus tires are better suited to handling the wet conditions experienced in Metro Vancouver. Commercial lug or winter tires are best suited for drier interior snow.

https://buzzer.translink.ca/2013/12/gearing-up-transit-for-snowy-commutes/

[teriyaki]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Wait a minute, Translink is too cheap to use snow tires on their busses?!!

When winter weather hits the Lower Mainland, buses often lose traction and slip around hill-laden city streets. Coast Mountain buses currently do not use winter tires, but employ all-season tires, better suited for wet conditions, according to a representative from the bus company.

According to Vancouver's snow removal plan, written in 2013, city staff approached the bus company about using winter tires following a 2012 snow storm, but were told it was not financially feasible...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...ansportation-parking-sidewalks-1.3917004

I agree with this decision. It would likely be prohibitively expensive to outfit the entire fleet with Winter Tires, that would then have to be rotated on and off each year. Also, the maintenance and storage of these seasonal items would all add to the cost. Also, I'd imagine transactions like these isn't just simply walking into your local walmart and picking out the cheapest set and walk out. There'd be a tender process, with service level guarantees from the manufacturer/provider which would all add layers of cost to the tires. Considering we havn't had major snowfall in the past few years, think of what money we would have wasted should we have had them installed in 2012. We'd be up in arms over the wasting of millions on tires that have gone un-used (tires have a limited shelf-life, doubly so for winter tires).

The alternative then, is to rely on the city to reasonably clear the major arteries so our transit system and regular cars can run even in the event of a snow event like we did. Putting more resources towards this item, would ultimately benefit more users (both transit and drivers alike) with the much lower cost to taxpayers.

I'm going to throw the idea of, having a small subfleet of busses though, that ARE equipped with winter tires that would be deployed in specific situations that would necessitate it. Routes, up SFU for instance would be dedicated to these type of busses. Once again though, it comes down to cost and are we as taxpayers willing to pay for this.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Wait a minute, Translink is too cheap to use snow tires on their busses?!!

According to Vancouver's snow removal plan, written in 2013, city staff approached the bus company about using winter tires following a 2012 snow storm

of course, instead of clearing the snow, which is Vancouver's jobs, lets make the OTHER GUY pay money for us not doing our jobs. typical Vision. Vancouver makes TransLink look bad while also neglecting their duties of clearing roads and sidewalks, though not the bike lanes *cough* seawall *cough*

Originally Posted by teriyaki

It would likely be prohibitively expensive to outfit the entire fleet with Winter Tires, that would then have to be rotated on and off each year. Also, the maintenance and storage of these seasonal items would all add to the cost. Also, I'd imagine transactions like these isn't just simply walking into your local walmart and picking out the cheapest set and walk out. There'd be a tender process, with service level guarantees from the manufacturer/provider which would all add layers of cost to the tires. Considering we havn't had major snowfall in the past few years, think of what money we would have wasted should we have had them installed in 2012.

The alternative then, is to rely on the city to reasonably clear the major arteries so our transit system and regular cars can run even in the event of a snow event like we did. Putting more resources towards this item, would ultimately benefit more users (both transit and drivers alike) with the much lower cost to taxpayers.

it would be a complete waste of money for TransLink to buy snow tires. for the amount of snow we get, those tires would would need replacing due to age long before being used up. this was our 1st major snowfall in over 1,000 days.

the city should do its damn job and actually focus on bus-routes over bike routes. hell use the small plows for the bike lanes to just do a tire track. better then nothing since clearly they don't have the equipment or people to do roads, but tons to do bike lanes.

[dpogue]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Wait a minute, Translink is too cheap to use snow tires on their busses?!!

When winter weather hits the Lower Mainland, buses often lose traction and slip around hill-laden city streets. Coast Mountain buses currently do not use winter tires, but employ all-season tires, better suited for wet conditions, according to a representative from the bus company.

According to Vancouver's snow removal plan, written in 2013, city staff approached the bus company about using winter tires following a 2012 snow storm, but were told it was not financially feasible...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...ansportation-parking-sidewalks-1.3917004

There was a report on CTV tonight about why CMBC doesn't use snow tires: http://bc.ctvnews.ca/should-metro-vancouver-buses-use-snow-tires-1.3225053

[...]
Union leader Steve Sutherland, president of Unifor Local 111, doesn’t think snow tires are the full solution.

“I think the bigger solution would be road maintenance, I think that’s what the bigger issue is,” he said, noting that the union would be doing some research on snow tires.

“When the snow sits and the roads aren’t clear, I don’t think the snow tire is going to get you up the Simon Fraser University hill. I don’t think that’s the whole answer, but it’s something to look into and investigate.”

Major Canadian cities that regularly have winter weather – unlike Vancouver’s more sporadic approach - have all looked into putting snow tires on buses. Yet these municipalities, which include Toronto, Halifax, and Calgary, have all rejected the idea.
[...]

(emphasis mine)

[SpongeG]

i can't figure out the travel time - is there a site that does it?

i need to get to the airport by 2 pm on saturday, starting at lougheed town centre

is it 2 hours travel time? or less? i have taken it the other way many times and usually takes me just over an hour with transfers - i have never got it to the airport, i don't want to screw it up and miss my flight

Edit: i found it - looks like i should leave just after 12 to be safe, trip time is 1 hr 11 minutes basically

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i can't figure out the travel time - is there a site that does it?

i need to get to the airport by 2 pm on saturday, starting at lougheed town centre

is it 2 hours travel time? or less? i have taken it the other way many times and usually takes me just over an hour with transfers - i have never got it to the airport, i don't want to screw it up and miss my flight

Edit: i found it - looks like i should leave just after 12 to be safe, trip time is 1 hr 11 minutes basically

Just use Google Maps for everything. While you don't have a bus transfer in that journey, Google Maps has one benefit over TransLink Trip Planner in that it knows when busses are running late.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i can't figure out the travel time - is there a site that does it? i need to get to the airport by 2 pm on saturday, starting at lougheed town centre

Edit: i found it - looks like i should leave just after 12 to be safe, trip time is 1 hr 11 minutes basically

For the benefit of other people who may be wondering how to do this, the answer is: "Translink Trip Planner". Google it.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by teriyaki

I agree with this decision. It would likely be prohibitively expensive to outfit the entire fleet with Winter Tires, that would then have to be rotated on and off each year. Also, the maintenance and storage of these seasonal items would all add to the cost. Also, I'd imagine transactions like these isn't just simply walking into your local walmart and picking out the cheapest set and walk out. There'd be a tender process, with service level guarantees from the manufacturer/provider which would all add layers of cost to the tires. Considering we havn't had major snowfall in the past few years, think of what money we would have wasted should we have had them installed in 2012. We'd be up in arms over the wasting of millions on tires that have gone un-used (tires have a limited shelf-life, doubly so for winter tires).

The alternative then, is to rely on the city to reasonably clear the major arteries so our transit system and regular cars can run even in the event of a snow event like we did. Putting more resources towards this item, would ultimately benefit more users (both transit and drivers alike) with the much lower cost to taxpayers.

I'm going to throw the idea of, having a small subfleet of busses though, that ARE equipped with winter tires that would be deployed in specific situations that would necessitate it. Routes, up SFU for instance would be dedicated to these type of busses. Once again though, it comes down to cost and are we as taxpayers willing to pay for this.

With the kind of wet heavy snow we get, the roads frequently get icy before plows get to them. Translink needs to be prepared. Also, the way the transit system is structured, the CoV would end up paying a lot more to keep it's roads absolutely bare from commuters from all over. If Translink pays for tires the cost is born by all municipalities.

I agree that certain routes should require mandatory snow tires. Not just SFU but the #3, #14 anything that has to tackle the hills getting out of the downtown core to the south.

The Translink apologists here should note the bus drivers union was also calling for snow tires in that article.

[VarBreStr18]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

i can't figure out the travel time - is there a site that does it?

i need to get to the airport by 2 pm on saturday, starting at lougheed town centre

is it 2 hours travel time? or less? i have taken it the other way many times and usually takes me just over an hour with transfers - i have never got it to the airport, i don't want to screw it up and miss my flight

Edit: i found it - looks like i should leave just after 12 to be safe, trip time is 1 hr 11 minutes basically

Depends on how much luggage you are lugging. i would even leave 11:30 to be safe. Transfer at Broadway/commercial to Waterfront, get on Canada Line from Waterfront guarantees an empty seat all the way to the airport.

[nname]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Translink needs to be prepared. Also, the way the transit system is structured, the CoV would end up paying a lot more to keep it's roads absolutely bare from commuters from all over. If Translink pays for tires the cost is born by all municipalities.

Vancouver actually get less km of bus route compared to Surrey, North Shore, and the Tri-Cities. In term of route-km per population, Vancouver probably got the least.

[SpongeG]

thanks for the replies, the name of the trip planner totally escaped my brain and i couldn't find much when i tried looking non-specifically, will give the google one a try, never thought of that.

if i get there too early i can have time for a look around

[twoNeurons]

Note that I imagine the buses would use Winter tires, not snow tires... and winter tires aren't just for snow... they're usually great at low temperatures in the rain as well. In addition, other than initial capital costs, you're only paying for switching and you don't end up increasing the overall TCO of tires much.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Note that I imagine the buses would use Winter tires, not snow tires... and winter tires aren't just for snow... they're usually great at low temperatures in the rain as well. In addition, other than initial capital costs, you're only paying for switching and you don't end up increasing the overall TCO of tires much.

Not quite sure what you're talking about because snow tires aren't really a thing any more. There are winter tires, all-weather tires, and all-season tires. TransLink uses all-season tires, and they don't switch because, despite what you think, they cost too much to purchase, store, and switch.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Note that I imagine the buses would use Winter tires, not snow tires... and winter tires aren't just for snow... they're usually great at low temperatures in the rain as well. In addition, other than initial capital costs, you're only paying for switching and you don't end up increasing the overall TCO of tires much.

IMO, for the amount of time, and amount of days that Vancouver has snow (literately 10% of the time, with a 25% chance of weather that would actually justify snow tires) it's just not economical to have, and also spend time changing the tires on a bus.

In theory, at least, you could use tire chains for when the weather is extra terrible, and that is something requiring less maintenance, but it's also extremely wear-some on the bus and the road. It would only be appropriate for the SFU routes until the road is cleared. So that may be like one or two days out of the year. It would actually make more sense to have a "spare" bus that is equipped with chains for the SFU route, or you know... a gondola system.

"All Season" tires are not snow/winter tires, at best they are appropriate for only Metro-Vancouver in Canada year round. You lose fuel efficiency and comfort levels when you use anything else. Other transit systems in Canada tend to get much colder dumps of snow that don't immediately melt, thus plowing it and hauling it away is what the cities have to do and the metaphorical "snow day" is an annual thing.

[SFUVancouver]

Agreed with the sentiment that winter tires for Translink buses makes no economic sense. There just aren't enough days to warrant the investment in tires and rims, the labour hours to swap all-seasons for winter tires (which have to be inspected and balanced), and the storage space at all of the yards or off-site for the rims and tires that aren't in use.

Either the buses would run on their winter tires for a few months of the year and quickly burn through their tread life with few instances of them being used in true winter driving conditions (cue armchair quarterbacking for Translink's financial irresponsibility and incompetence from its usual suspect detractors), or Translink operations would wait until a particularly bad winter storm was forecast and work pell-mell to switch over as many buses as possible in time and maybe only deploy this sub-fleet while holding back the rest pending their tire swap (cue armchair quarterbacking for Translink's operational irresponsibility and incompetence from its usual suspect detractors). It's really damned either way, and if cities that get actual winter all the time don't bother with winter tires, then I really see no need for Translink. What is really needed is a far more robust street clearing program from the cities (cue armchair quarterbacking for the various municipalities' financial and operational irresponsibility and incompetence from their usual suspect detractors). There's a theme here...

Regarding winter tires for cars, my Subaru Forester has OEM Yokohama Geolander all-season tires rated for mud & snow (the lesser of the two "winter tire" ratings), but I bought a set of Michelin X-Ice xi3 and have been very happy with their performance so far on three round-trip winter Vancouver-Kelowna runs, including a storm that effectively closed the highway and I had hours of un-plowed snow to drive through. Michelin seems to have figured out the magic formula of balancing normal tire-like ride and performance on clear dry highways and pretty damn exceptional snow and ice performance, all with great fuel efficiency and an extremely long tread-life for winter tires (guaranteed 60k) and allegedly good performance right up to the replacement wear line. Anyway, 3,000-plus km into the tires, all of it below zero, and most of that on Vancouver-Kelowna runs, I'm an evangelist.

[logan5]

Cant you put chains on buses? Cheap and quick to install i presume.