The future of Ottawa's Transit

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

As for Gatineau, Darwin suggested creating a simple rail shuttle from Bayview to Place Du Portage. This would be cheap, easy to implement, and would benefit OC Transpo by eliminating the need to run OC Transpo buses across the river (the rail shuttle could easily replace the OC Transpo corridor running from Lebreton into downtown Hull).

Cheap is all that it would be with close to zero ridership outside of peak periods. My suggestion of a downtown to downtown streetcar loop would serve a whole lot more people more effectively (and much better for east end commuters to Hull) and promote development along the route. With sufficient capacity and frequency, it could even be used to move Gatineau commuters destined for downtown Ottawa and get STO buses out of Ottawa. Eventually that could connect to a Gatineau LRT plan

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Cheap is all that it would be with close to zero ridership outside of peak periods. My suggestion of a downtown to downtown streetcar loop would serve a whole lot more people more effectively (and much better for east end commuters to Hull) and promote development along the route. With sufficient capacity and frequency, it could even be used to move Gatineau commuters destined for downtown Ottawa and get STO buses out of Ottawa. Eventually that could connect to a Gatineau LRT plan

And what bridge would it use?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We are maxed out now. You can't run more trains without attaching them together. The next step is double tracking.

Would double tracking the line except for the tunnel solve this, or does the tunnel also need to be double track to get more frequency?

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Cheap is all that it would be with close to zero ridership outside of peak periods. My suggestion of a downtown to downtown streetcar loop would serve a whole lot more people more effectively (and much better for east end commuters to Hull) and promote development along the route. With sufficient capacity and frequency, it could even be used to move Gatineau commuters destined for downtown Ottawa and get STO buses out of Ottawa. Eventually that could connect to a Gatineau LRT plan

Whatever happened to the grand plan for that streetcar loop the NCC was proposing. It really would be an improvement. Also on the list was a streetcar into Vanier. Not as speedy as a subway, but done right it would go long way to improving transit. One along bank, also not as ideal as a subway, but could also be better than what we have. I think Ive mentioned I've been to oslo, which is the same size as us but they have an incredible public transit system. I used their trams far more often then the metro. When taking the bus there, I also noticed they space their stops farther to improve speed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Cheap is all that it would be with close to zero ridership outside of peak periods. My suggestion of a downtown to downtown streetcar loop would serve a whole lot more people more effectively (and much better for east end commuters to Hull) and promote development along the route. With sufficient capacity and frequency, it could even be used to move Gatineau commuters destined for downtown Ottawa and get STO buses out of Ottawa. Eventually that could connect to a Gatineau LRT plan

Oddly enough this project was back in the news in Gatineau yesterday. It's described as an "almost forgotten" project:

http://www.info07.com/actualites/2016/12...-implantation-de-la-boucle-technolo.html

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

And what bridge would it use?

I would like to see it go across at Chaudiere so it serves Zibi and return over the Interprovincial Bridge. I see it running down St. Patrick and Murray and Dalhousie (through the heart of the Market), Waller, MacKenzie King Bridge, Albert and Slater and Booth. It connects all the major downtown attractions and the Confederation Line. It would be a two way loop. Because it is serving so many points of interest, it does not have to run super fast.

As I said, if we wanted Rapibus could transfer passengers destined to downtown Ottawa onto this loop streetcar (with sufficient frequency) with the idea that Rapibus be eventually converted to rail and the loop streetcars would then be extended onto the Rapibus corridor.

The value of this is that we do not overwhelm the Bayview transfer and the tunnel with Gatineau passengers.

The whole idea would invigorate downtown Hull.

Think of the possibilities for local residents in the new developments, for bar hoppers, for tourists, for office workers in Hull and even office workers in downtown Ottawa if we connected Rapibus.

With proper design, the simple loop streetcar (which would really be LRT), could be the foundation of interprovincial rail transit that we should all want. Proper design would have lane segregation where ever possible on the loop.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Would double tracking the line except for the tunnel solve this, or does the tunnel also need to be double track to get more frequency?

I don't know about 5 minute service, but a significant improvement of frequency could be had by double tracking everything but the tunnel as the trains could be timed to minimize risk of trains in both directions needing it at the same time. Even if they do, I'm guessing it takes about 45 seconds to travel through the tunnel and about 30 seconds the throw the switch to allow the other train by, so the maximum delay that could be introduced is 75 seconds. Not ideal, but reasonable.

The project could be done incrementally, extending all of the current sidings to reduce the snowball effect of one train running late, causing all the other trains to run late.

Probably even more important than double tracking is grade separation with the VIA Rail crossing, as that is what causes most of the delays.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Whatever happened to the grand plan for that streetcar loop the NCC was proposing. It really would be an improvement. Also on the list was a streetcar into Vanier. Not as speedy as a subway, but done right it would go long way to improving transit. One along bank, also not as ideal as a subway, but could also be better than what we have. I think Ive mentioned I've been to oslo, which is the same size as us but they have an incredible public transit system. I used their trams far more often then the metro. When taking the bus there, I also noticed they space their stops farther to improve speed.

There is no political appetite in this town to do the significant sacrificing of private auto space on major downtown streets like Bank or Wellington-Rideau-Montreal and reallocating it to transit. You would also have to refight the NCC fight which seems to be settled in the anti-transit camp, which reserves Wellington Street for private autos, not transit of any kind.

And there is no cash for fixed transit (rail, whether surface or otherwise) on these corridors, and no political appetite to raise that cash.

It's buses - and too many of them low-capacity buses - all the way down.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I would like to see it go across at Chaudiere so it serves Zibi

While Zibi is closer to Chauiere (rue Eddy), it is between it and Portage Bridge, so using Portage would still serve it (the bridges are only about 400m apart). Portage Bridge is wider and already has bus lanes, so it would likely be easier and less disruptive to add LRT to it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

You would also have to refight the NCC fight which seems to be settled in the anti-transit camp, which reserves Wellington Street for private autos, not transit of any kind.

I think the NCC is more any commuter than anti transit as their focus is tourists not locals. Make it a tourist line and the NCC will be all over it.

And there is no cash for fixed transit (rail, whether surface or otherwise) on these corridors, and no political appetite to raise that cash.

It depends on the level of government. The feds want to spend money so make it an NCC tourist project and there will be lots of money.

It's buses - and too many of them low-capacity buses - all the way down.

As I have said before, the low capacity bus issue will go away once LRT opens. We will have more articulated buses than we know what to do with then. I suspect all of the "Frequent" and "Rapid" (and maybe even some local) buses will use artics. Once that happens I am sure you will be complaining about how much you hate the articulated buses.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I think the NCC is more any commuter than anti transit as their focus is tourists not locals. Make it a tourist line and the NCC will be all over it.

Definetly anti-transit. Their hatred of buses on Wellington goes back decades, and the city is stupidly playing along. That view is for motorists, whether local or tourist.

It depends on the level of government. The feds want to spend money so make it an NCC tourist project and there will be lots of money.

Other than Mer Bleue, Rideau Hall and the eastern parkway, the NCC has almost zero interest in anything east of the Rideau River. Small mercies.

As I have said before, the low capacity bus issue will go away once LRT opens. We will have more articulated buses than we know what to do with then.

That surplus of artics is going to be very, very temporary. They will sell them off. Watch. The city doesn't believe in using bendies on local routes downtown, and gives in to self-appointed neighbourhood associations who whinge about the "traffic" and "pollution" and "noise" they cause.

I suspect all of the "Frequent" and "Rapid" (and maybe even some local) buses will use artics. Once that happens I am sure you will be complaining about how much you hate the articulated buses.

I love artics.

I can pretty well guarantee that the city will not increase capacity on downtown routes. Even if they do add artics to runs, they will "compensate" by... reducing the frequency of those runs.

Seen this movie many times.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Cheap is all that it would be with close to zero ridership outside of peak periods.

The fact that it would be heavily used at peak is a feature, not a bug. Don't let perfect - whatever your concept might be of perfect - be the enemy of the good.

My suggestion of a downtown to downtown streetcar loop would serve a whole lot more people more effectively (and much better for east end commuters to Hull) and promote development along the route. With sufficient capacity and frequency, it could even be used to move Gatineau commuters destined for downtown Ottawa and get STO buses out of Ottawa. Eventually that could connect to a Gatineau LRT plan

And as long as it has to move in mixed street traffic, it will be a transit service, but not a rapid one.

Downtowns and the interprovincial links need to have more rapid transit, not just the regular kind.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It depends on the level of government. The feds want to spend money so make it an NCC tourist project and there will be lots of money.

Also, the NCC not only does not actually fund transit projects (just roads and parking lots, from time to time), they have actively obstructed EVERY major capital transit project in Ottawa of the past forty years, adding delays, red tape, and expense, almost all of it unneeded.

There is nothing wrong with the NCC that can't be fixed by abolishing it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Other than Mer Bleue, Rideau Hall and the eastern parkway, the NCC has almost zero interest in anything east of the Rideau River. Small mercies.

I was discussing an Ottawa/Hull transit loop. I can't imagine any feasible routing for that which would go east of the Rideau River. Not that I am against providing transit east of the river, its just a long detour from Hull.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I was discussing an Ottawa/Hull transit loop. I can't imagine any feasible routing for that which would go east of the Rideau River. Not that I am against providing transit east of the river, its just a long detour from Hull.

The earlier posting mentioned the idea of fixed transit east towards Vanier as well.

[1overcosc]

Here's my proposal for a POW bridge rail line:

Once the Trillium line is upgraded to a proper rail line, extend it north across the POW bridge, then east into downtown Hull along the old rail right of way. Rapibus connections can be made at Tache-UQO station and at Place du Portage.

However, and I can't stress this enough:

As a cross-river transit link, it's a great idea.

As the cross-river transit link, it 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

It would be great for Ottawans commuting to downtown Hull (it would effectively replace the connection at Lebreton to the #8 bus with a faster and more comfortable train), and it would be great for Gatinois heading to hockey games at Lebreton, heading to Tunney's Pasture or anywhere west of the core, or heading to Confederation Heights, Carleton University, and the Airport.

It does not work well for Gatinois working in downtown Ottawa due to the high number of transfers, awkward circular routing, and potential capacity concerns along the Confederation Line between Bayview and the CBD.

If we built this, it would be built with the full expectation that Gatineau residents commuting to the CBD would not use it, and instead continue to use the Rapibus buses that would continue to run into downtown Ottawa. However, most Ottawans who commute to Hull and many Gatinois heading to non-downtown destinations would use the new train.

In terms of who will pay for it, Quebec and/or Gatineau should contribute, but less than Ottawa/Ontario should, as it benefits Ottawa more than it benefits Gatineau. Alternatively the federal funding share could simply be higher to reflect that it's an interprovincial infrastructure project.

For operating costs, OC Transpo could pay for it simply through the savings of no longer having so many buses drive across the river. That said, a small federal or Quebec/Gatineau contribution to operation would be ideal to reflect that it does have utility to some on the Quebec side, in terms of allowing Quebec-side residents easier access to many non-CBD destinations in Ottawa.

It would be an Ottawa-led project mostly benefitting Ottawa.

Later on, to provide a rail solution for Gatinois commuters into downtown Ottawa, the Rapibus could be converted into LRT and connected to a downtown streetcar loop. This would be a Gatineau-led project and be done whenever Gatineau decides it wants to replace the Rapibus with LRT (as they indicated they do want to do in the future). In the meantime the Rapibus system works fine.

[lrt's friend]

The POW link to downtown Hull works for the west and south end of the city. It provides a big detour for those coming from the east half of the city.

The question must be asked about double tracking the Trillium Line and an extension across the POW bridge. Does the extension interfere with a double tracking project? Will it interfere with the reliability of the line if a single track is only feasible across the bridge?

As I pointed out before, what will the ridership be outside of peak periods? Without Gatineau passengers supporting the line, is it worth the cost of building it?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The POW link to downtown Hull works for the west and south end of the city. It provides a big detour for those coming from the east half of the city.

The question must be asked about double tracking the Trillium Line and an extension across the POW bridge. Does the extension interfere with a double tracking project? Will it interfere with the reliability of the line if a single track is only feasible across the bridge?

Good questions, ones which should not have to wait until Jim Watson builds an LRT line to Kanata sometime in the next 40 years.

As I pointed out before, what will the ridership be outside of peak periods? Without Gatineau passengers supporting the line, is it worth the cost of building it?

I suspect yes. Maybe we need a municipal Trump: "We're gonna build interprovincial transit, and Gatineau's gonna pay for it!"*







* We do not actually need a municipal Trump.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The POW link to downtown Hull works for the west and south end of the city. It provides a big detour for those coming from the east half of the city.

Would it be that big of a detour though? Presumably, if your destination were Chaudière or Portage, you would take Confederation line to Pimisi and transfer to a bus to cross via Booth/Eddy. Is it that much longer to stay on Confederation line one more stop to Bayview, and then transfer to a Trillium Line train to cross over, with (hypothetically) 1 additional stop between Bayview and Chaudière?

Yes, it is geographically a longer distance, but the train is unimpeded across the river, while the bus runs in mixed traffic.

I'm not saying the train-to-train connection as suggested would assuredly be faster, but I don't think it's substantially longer either, and would likely be more reliable.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Horus

Would it be that big of a detour though? Presumably, if your destination were Chaudière or Portage, you would take Confederation line to Pimisi and transfer to a bus to cross via Booth/Eddy. Is it that much longer to stay on Confederation line one more stop to Bayview, and then transfer to a Trillium Line train to cross over, with (hypothetically) 1 additional stop between Bayview and Chaudière?

Yes, it is geographically a longer distance, but the train is unimpeded across the river, while the bus runs in mixed traffic.

I'm not saying the train-to-train connection as suggested would assuredly be faster, but I don't think it's substantially longer either, and would likely be more reliable.

We are adding a couple of extra km to a commute, the single track will limit frequency and a fairly tight turn on the Quebec side will slow down trains.

What is the advantage of delivering slower service just so that it is on trains?