The future of Ottawa's Transit

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by gjhall

Which brings us to the point. Are single rides preferable to transfers? Of course. Would everyone like a point to point trip? Sure thing. Can a growing city service a growing downtown spanning two provinces, deliver people to work, leisure, and home all in a single line? No.

Some places are going to be more convenient from certain places, others from different places. Some trips will require transfers because life.

Yes, but we are talking about multiple transfers. That will never work. As soon as you get to that second transfer, the percentage of people that will consider it, drops like a stone.

It does not matter if its Ottawa or Montreal or Toronto, people will react the same way. And if one of those transfers involves an half hourly or hourly bus, forget it. In good portions of Montreal and Toronto, buses run frequently. Not in Ottawa.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yes, but we are talking about multiple transfers. That will never work. As soon as you get to that second transfer, the percentage of people that will consider it, drops like a stone.

It does not matter if its Ottawa or Montreal or Toronto, people will react the same way. And if one of those transfers involves an half hourly or hourly bus, forget it. In good portions of Montreal and Toronto, buses run frequently. Not in Ottawa.

Then the solution is to up the frequency. Not provide bad (low frequency) but direct service.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yes, but we are talking about multiple transfers. That will never work. As soon as you get to that second transfer, the percentage of people that will consider it, drops like a stone.

It does not matter if its Ottawa or Montreal or Toronto, people will react the same way. And if one of those transfers involves an half hourly or hourly bus, forget it. In good portions of Montreal and Toronto, buses run frequently. Not in Ottawa.

But there's no solution to that... The only thing that can really do a single seat point-to-point ride is a car. All you can do is make the transfers as easy as possible. One of my headaches about public transit in Ottawa is that it's hard to get anywhere except downtown. In a large European city, a metro-metro-metro transfer isn't a big ordeal when the trains are so frequent that waiting time is negligible. As soon as you add any significant wait time (the 30 minute bus for example), then things drop off.

Also, yes I take the train to Little Italy because it's convenient, but the future transfer at Bayview isn't a barrier to me, I transfer to the bus now if I want to go to Rideau (a train would be much better). I'm just saying I have no real reason to go into the central part of downtown. We're not a small town anymore, I think it's actually a good thing that there's interesting places to go besides the inner most part of the core. I'd also transfer west to Westboro, or use the link to points east that Uhuniau claims will be built post 2100.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

But there's no solution to that... The only thing that can really do a single seat point-to-point ride is a car. All you can do is make the transfers as easy as possible. One of my headaches about public transit in Ottawa is that it's hard to get anywhere except downtown. In a large European city, a metro-metro-metro transfer isn't a big ordeal when the trains are so frequent that waiting time is negligible. As soon as you add any significant wait time (the 30 minute bus for example), then things drop off.

Also, yes I take the train to Little Italy because it's convenient, but the future transfer at Bayview isn't a barrier to me, I transfer to the bus now if I want to go to Rideau (a train would be much better). I'm just saying I have no real reason to go into the central part of downtown. We're not a small town anymore, I think it's actually a good thing that there's interesting places to go besides the inner most part of the core. I'd also transfer west to Westboro, or use the link to points east that Uhuniau claims will be built post 2100.

Hopefully they build good bus garages at the various O-Train stations. The better those are, the more likely someone will take the bus, and then take the trains.

Too many people are still stuck in the "Car is King" mentality. The reality is usually far from this. In Toronto to go downtown when visiting, I will park at a subway station, any subway station and use the subway. I my have to switch lines, but, it is heated and well lit.

My sister lives within a 5 minute walk of a Streetcar line. Getting to her place is easier than finding parking near her.

Give the LRT one full election and then see what the candidates for council say. I don't doubt there will be more focus on making the transfer from one mode to the other.

As far as frequency, some of the TTC bus routes have a higher capacity than the Streetcar routes. The higher frequency is only during rush hour. And just because it is higher frequency, does not mean it will stop. I have stood waiting for a bus and watching 5 buses of the route I need pass by as they were at capacity.

If there are bus routes that skip stops due to the bus at capacity, then yes, higher frequency is needed. Should it always be higher frequency? Not unless the ridership requires it. No point a half full bus coming by every 5 minutes.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

But there's no solution to that... The only thing that can really do a single seat point-to-point ride is a car. All you can do is make the transfers as easy as possible. One of my headaches about public transit in Ottawa is that it's hard to get anywhere except downtown. In a large European city, a metro-metro-metro transfer isn't a big ordeal when the trains are so frequent that waiting time is negligible. As soon as you add any significant wait time (the 30 minute bus for example), then things drop off.

Also, yes I take the train to Little Italy because it's convenient, but the future transfer at Bayview isn't a barrier to me, I transfer to the bus now if I want to go to Rideau (a train would be much better). I'm just saying I have no real reason to go into the central part of downtown. We're not a small town anymore, I think it's actually a good thing that there's interesting places to go besides the inner most part of the core. I'd also transfer west to Westboro, or use the link to points east that Uhuniau claims will be built post 2100.

Again, you are supporting what I said. You are prepared to make one transfer to reach your destination. But two or three transfers? You are fortunate to be within walking distance of Greenboro. I would say that 90% of the population is not so lucky. Many are dependant on that infrequent bus. So, are we only focusing on the 10%? Is that really how we convince more to switch to transit? Is that really how we get more to go downtown or any other key destination?

I don't live far from you. The difference is that I can't walk to Greenboro. It is either a bus transfer or drive to Greenboro and park if there are any spaces available. I wouldn't even contemplate going to Westboro by transit because of that last couple of km from Greenboro.

Everybody seems to be convinced that I am suggesting a one seat ride. Have I said that? No. I have said consistently that one transfer is acceptable. When you get to two or three, you can count the majority of the population out. The trip becomes too unreliable especially with legs on infrequent bus routes.

This all stems back to ideas suggesting the POW bridge be used and that Rapibus feed into it. Again, too many transfers for the average user. It becomes an arduous journey and as we have seen, the Trillium Line is far from dependable with yet another shut down. If you want more to use transit, you need to compete better with cars. We shouldn't suggest things that make transit even less competitive.

We shouldn't really be comparing Ottawa with Toronto or Montreal. We should be comparing the status quo in Ottawa with proposed changes. Is it really an improvement? Where is the cost/benefit analysis?

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Again, you are supporting what I said. You are prepared to make one transfer to reach your destination. But two or three transfers? You are fortunate to be within walking distance of Greenboro. I would say that 90% of the population is not so lucky. Many are dependant on that infrequent bus. So, are we only focusing on the 10%? Is that really how we convince more to switch to transit? Is that really how we get more to go downtown or any other key destination?

Greenboro is actually *just barely* within walking distance, but I'd rather walk 20 minutes than take the local bus there.

This is the old "first-mile-last-mile" problem. So let's assume Stage 2 exists and I'm going to MEC in Westboro and I don't want to walk from my house, so my trip is bus->greenboro->bayview->westboro station. The unpalatable part is the bus->greenboro and the way back, which only runs every half hour. The trip is equally painful even if I chose to go to little Italy instead, the bayview transfer is moot.

This is where technology might save us. Rather than run empty buses every 30 minutes through residential streets, we could do like other cities are planning and partner with Lyft/Uber/Taxis to do that first connection from my house to the train, all part of my single fare and on-demand within minutes. True, you could take Uber/Lyft/Taxi point-to-point, but that's far too expensive to do frequently. You're keeping the cost affordable by using high-capacity public infrastructure for the long distance part.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We shouldn't really be comparing Ottawa with Toronto or Montreal. We should be comparing the status quo in Ottawa with proposed changes. Is it really an improvement? Where is the cost/benefit analysis?

Yes and no. We can use other cities as examples of what works and what doesn't. Here in Ottawa we have been spoiled with peek period direct service to downtown from most parts of the city. LRT will eliminate that for many, but the benefits will hopefully outweigh the loss.

Montreal's blue line isn't a bad comparison to the current Trillium line. It seems to primarily serve the Université de Montréal, intersecting the eastern and western legs of the orange line. Other than that, the density of housing near the stations seems fairly low (based on observations with Google maps), so not many are likely within easy walking distance. There are plans to extend the blue line even further north-east.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Greenboro is actually *just barely* within walking distance, but I'd rather walk 20 minutes than take the local bus there.
This is where technology might save us. Rather than run empty buses every 30 minutes through residential streets, we could do like other cities are planning and partner with Lyft/Uber/Taxis to do that first connection from my house to the train, all part of my single fare and on-demand within minutes. True, you could take Uber/Lyft/Taxi point-to-point, but that's far too expensive to do frequently. You're keeping the cost affordable by using high-capacity public infrastructure for the long distance part.

The other option is to go the Madrid route, and have a very dense network where over 50% of the population lives within 600m of a metro station. We don't seem to have the political capital (or financial) for that though.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Yes and no. We can use other cities as examples of what works and what doesn't. Here in Ottawa we have been spoiled with peek period direct service to downtown from most parts of the city. LRT will eliminate that for many, but the benefits will hopefully outweigh the loss.

Montreal's blue line isn't a bad comparison to the current Trillium line. It seems to primarily serve the Université de Montréal, intersecting the eastern and western legs of the orange line. Other than that, the density of housing near the stations seems fairly low (based on observations with Google maps), so not many are likely within easy walking distance. There are plans to extend the blue line even further north-east.

Perhaps, but not in terms of its transfer point.
- Bayview is about 1.7km from Downtown
- The closest transfer point from the Ligne Bleue to Downtown Montreal is 6.7km.

Berri-UQAM would be a more apt comparaison at 1.2km from Montreal's CBD (depending on how you define it, but most would say it starts to the west of Place Des Arts)

And lots of people transfer at Berri. I do it regularly. It's not 100% ideal, but it is far from being the end of the world.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

The other option is to go the Madrid route, and have a very dense network where over 50% of the population lives within 600m of a metro station. We don't seem to have the political capital (or financial) for that though.

The standard in Paris is famously that no address in the city is more than 500 metres from a métro station.

[acottawa]

I'm not sure I see the advantage of the city paying uber (or a taxi company) to bring someone to a rapid transit stop. I think people have some responsibility to live close to amenities they want easy access to. If someone wants their kid to walk to school they should live close to a school, if they want to walk to the library they should live close to a library, if they want to walk to the pub they should live close to a pub. There are many housing options at various price points near rapid transit stations. There are many more housing options near arterial roads that have frequent transit service.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I'm not sure I see the advantage of the city paying uber (or a taxi company) to bring someone to a rapid transit stop. I think people have some responsibility to live close to amenities they want easy access to. If someone wants their kid to walk to school they should live close to a school, if they want to walk to the library they should live close to a library, if they want to walk to the pub they should live close to a pub. There are many housing options at various price points near rapid transit stations. There are many more housing options near arterial roads that have frequent transit service.

It may arguably be more cost effective than running a large fleet of buses and running them empty through the 'burbs, assuming you still want all people to have same access transit they do now. The same point you make could be why we bother to run collector routes at all. We could just run the mainline routes and drop the empty buses running around Orleans and Kanata during the day. When demand is low, the uber/lyft thing logically would be cheaper (and better for the environment, a bus is only ecologically friendly if full). When demand is high, run a bus on a fixed route.

Getting back to the original point about transfers, during rush hours the peak bus would run me all the way to Hurdman station, it's frequent, and makes it worthwhile to take transit. In low periods, say 1 in the afternoon in my neighborhood, uber picks me up and drops me off at Greenboro, again low wait time and cheap, encouraging transit use. The way it is now, I'd drive outside of peak times.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

Getting back to the original point about transfers, during rush hours the peak bus would run me all the way to Hurdman station, it's frequent, and makes it worthwhile to take transit. In low periods, say 1 in the afternoon in my neighborhood, uber picks me up and drops me off at Greenboro, again low wait time and cheap, encouraging transit use. The way it is now, I'd drive outside of peak times.

Why is that bad? It costs the city nothing for you to drive in off-peak times (they might even get some revenue if you pay to park somewhere), it would cost the city $5-10 dollars to pay uber to bring you to a transit station and even if you pay the full cash fare they are still out several dollars. Maybe there are some neighbourhoods where it would be cheaper to discontinue transit altogether and only pay uber, although I would tend to think such a strategy would increase demand and end up costing more.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

. In a large European city, a metro-metro-metro transfer isn't a big ordeal when the trains are so frequent that waiting time is negligible.

For this reason, the Bayview transfer won't be a problem if we double track the Trillium line and up its frequency to every 5 minutes. The transfer will be so easy that it will barely serve as a barrier.

Double tracking the line and buying a few more DMU trains for Trillium would be much cheaper than a full LRT conversion with interlining into the tunnel, and it would achieve similar results.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Why is that bad? It costs the city nothing for you to drive in off-peak times (they might even get some revenue if you pay to park somewhere), it would cost the city $5-10 dollars to pay uber to bring you to a transit station and even if you pay the full cash fare they are still out several dollars. Maybe there are some neighbourhoods where it would be cheaper to discontinue transit altogether and only pay uber, although I would tend to think such a strategy would increase demand and end up costing more.

The provincial government piloted an idea like this in North York in the 1970s, and it ended up being far too expensive to continue.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

For this reason, the Bayview transfer won't be a problem if we double track the Trillium line and up its frequency to every 5 minutes. The transfer will be so easy that it will barely serve as a barrier.

Double tracking the line and buying a few more DMU trains for Trillium would be much cheaper than a full LRT conversion with interlining into the tunnel, and it would achieve similar results.

With current track condition, what is the least headway they could safely achieve? How many trains would they need to maintain that headway?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

With current track condition, what is the least headway they could safely achieve? How many trains would they need to maintain that headway?

We are maxed out now. You can't run more trains without attaching them together. The next step is double tracking.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

For this reason, the Bayview transfer won't be a problem if we double track the Trillium line and up its frequency to every 5 minutes. The transfer will be so easy that it will barely serve as a barrier.

Double tracking the line and buying a few more DMU trains for Trillium would be much cheaper than a full LRT conversion with interlining into the tunnel, and it would achieve similar results.

The big step and cost is the double tracking. You might as well go all the way and electrify the line. Running DMUs every 5 minutes is going beyond the purpose of that kind of train. In Europe, they are used for commuter service into the more distant suburbs.

We are being speculative about the Bayview transfer here. We assume that we are going to have frequent service but we have no plans to do that. This is why I object to what we are doing. We are not providing 5 minute frequency. And many are suggesting extending across POW and creating other awkward transfers without the frequent service carrot.

So we can't compare the ease of subway transfers in Montreal and Toronto when we are not going to offer the same ease of transfer here.

The proof is in the pudding. Few people use the Trillium Line to go downtown, yet we plan on massive building nearby.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The big step and cost is the double tracking. You might as well go all the way and electrify the line. Running DMUs every 5 minutes is going beyond the purpose of that kind of train. In Europe, they are used for commuter service into the more distant suburbs.

A 5 minute DMU service could very well be hundreds of millions cheaper to implement than electric LRT. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

5 minute DMU service would more or less eliminate the transfer penalty for potentially hundreds of millions less than an electric LRT + interlining solution.

[1overcosc]

As for Gatineau, Darwin suggested creating a simple rail shuttle from Bayview to Place Du Portage. This would be cheap, easy to implement, and would benefit OC Transpo by eliminating the need to run OC Transpo buses across the river (the rail shuttle could easily replace the OC Transpo corridor running from Lebreton into downtown Hull).