Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

The facts are accurate and properly cited. Yes, the 1981 stats reflect the City of Ottawa's boundaries as they existed at that time. The fact that those stats naturally exclude the former cities of Nepean, Kanata, etc. is not an oversight. Rather, it's both intentional and accurate on my part because it goes to the whole point I'm making, which is that:



Building the confederation line in 1981 (or even a shabby, no-name brand facsimile thereof) would not have been a feasible option for several reasons. Firstly, our population was much smaller. Secondly, we were a much poorer city back then because our GDP was much lower. Finally, it would not have been feasible to build because the line would have spanned several cities' municipal boundaries creating a bureaucratic and logistical nightmare. If you doubt how crippling that sort of thing can be, I invite people to read about the sad story of the Metro Vancouver transit improvements push that took years and years of negotiations to get off the ground only to have all those negotiations between cities killed by the electorate despite literally every single mayor and city council in the region supporting it.

The cross boundary issue only applies when crossing into Quebec. This is still a major hurdle. That issue was eliminated on the Ontario side when regional government was formed in 1969. This allowed OC Transpo to be founded a year or two later and that allowed transit service to be seamlessly extended beyond the City of Ottawa boundary into Nepean, Gloucester etc. It also allowed for the eventual planning of the Transitways. There was a debate about LRT in the late 1970s and early 1980s and it was not municipal boundaries that was the hurdle. It was the capital cost of building it in relation to the capacity needed for the system. Effectively, the Transitways have strangled by their own success. I would further add that the Mike Harris government prevented the downtown segment from being built when his government ended capital grants towards transit infrastructure. This is why the Eglinton subway in Toronto was filled in.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Bridges were probably designed and built for buses. Trains are heavier.

From what I have heard, it isn't that the trains are heavier or that the bridges couldn't be used, it is that it was cheaper to replace them now, while service is being interrupted anyway, than it was to keep them and then repair or replace them within the next 30 years, when they reach the end of their useful life.

I believe this decision was made by and paid for by the RTG, since they have a fixed cost maintenance contract for 30 years. Had it not been for this contract, they would likely have kept the bridges and then 10 years into service told us that they need to be replaced soon. To me, they are doing something right for a change on this.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

This is one of many wild assertions being thrown out here. Perhaps some actual facts might be helpful instead of just asserting things more and more loudly?

Fact: In 1981, the population of the city of Ottawa was just 295,163. Whereas in 1981, the population of Calgary was double that of Ottawa's at 592,743.

Which is why I used the word "metropolitan". Calgary has pretty well always been a unitary city, annexing newly urbanized and suburbanized areas as it has grown. Ottawa, until 2000, was a two-tier municipality, with transit the responsibility of the upper tier RMOC.

In, say, 1983, the metropolitan population of Calgary was 623K, Edmonton 689K, Ottawa-Hull 748K, and the Ottawa portion alone 574K.

Not only was Ottawa's population in 1981 NOT comparable to Calgary's (we were half their size), but we were a much much poorer city relative to Calgary (and any other city for that matter) in 2016.

Ottawa has always been one of the most affluent metros in Canada since metro-level stats have been kept.

Ottawa's total GDP in 1981 would have been roughly $3.3 billion (USD) whereas today our city's total GDP is somewhere on the order of ~$45 billion (USD). Even accounting for inflation, we are WAY better able to afford something like the Confederation Line today than we would have been able to afford even a fraction of something as good in the 1980s.

Since municipalities can't tax their GDP, that comparison is pretty well meaningless.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The cross boundary issue only applies when crossing into Quebec. This is still a major hurdle.

Indeed, as demonstrated again today by Jim Watson, the Mayor of Kanata:

http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2016...long-term-sense.html?cq_ck=1481574932164

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Indeed, as demonstrated again today by Jim Watson, the Mayor of Kanata:

http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2016...long-term-sense.html?cq_ck=1481574932164

Personally, I think linking Gatineau (though not necessarily using the POW bridge) should be a higher priority than a Kanata extension, but I think a downtown north/south line should beat out both of them.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Personally, I think linking Gatineau (though not necessarily using the POW bridge) should be a higher priority than a Kanata extension, but I think a downtown north/south line should beat out both of them.

An O-train extension on the PoW bridge could be done relatively quickly, and, I suspect, for relatively cheap, unless the traditional Ottawa overbuilders take charge of the file.

A north-south downtown line would be nice but much more expensive. If we eventually build another LRT line in the core, the priority route has to be Rideau-Montreal. That's where the next-highest demand is and where the serious bottlenecks are.

However, near-eastern communities will be subsidizing transit-oriented sprawl to the suburbs for decades to come, while continuing to rely on junk bus transit that there is no political will, or public treasure, to fix.

Nice deal if you're a suburbanite.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

An O-train extension on the PoW bridge could be done relatively quickly, and, I suspect, for relatively cheap,

Quickly maybe. Not so sure about cheaply. I gather the bridge needs some major repairs to make it safe.

unless the traditional Ottawa overbuilders take charge of the file.

My fear is the typical underbuilders will take the file and will build something that meets the bare minimum requirements and needs to be shut down for upgrades every couple years for upgrades (just like the Trillium line).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Quickly maybe. Not so sure about cheaply. I gather the bridge needs some major repairs to make it safe.

It does, yes, but probably not much more than on the order of a mid-sized Ottawa roads project. But, you know, priorities.

My fear is the typical underbuilders will take the file and will build something that meets the bare minimum requirements and needs to be shut down for upgrades every couple years for upgrades (just like the Trillium line).

The shutdown-causing problems on the Trillium line aren't due to any problems with the stations themselves. (And at least the Carleton station could have been, and should have been, built bigger to begin with, or expanded, at some point in the past 16 years... would have been a better use of money than the "art".)

I'd rather see rail transit money spent on signals and passing sidings than overbuilt "architectural statements" with fancy roofs.

[ortelius]

Originally Posted by McC

so about that light rail transit system we're building...

I walked by Rideau St, it looks like they were removing the jet grouting equipment.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by ortelius

I walked by Rideau St, it looks like they were removing the jet grouting equipment.

Does one dare hope that the infernal bus detour on Rideau will soon end?

[JM1]

The 7 is especially bad. It should use Waller south of Rideau, but for some ridiculous reason, they have it using Dalhousie. Extra five minutes of lights and turns and backtracking.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Does one dare hope that the infernal bus detour on Rideau will soon end?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My observations where the trains and buses run parallel between Heron and Walkley Roads is that buses run faster, and now with the switches and passing track, much faster. The only improvement we will actually see is operations between Lebreton and Hurdman.

The Confederation Line will be a lot faster than the Trillium Line, both current and pre-"improvement", due to using electric trains and a much higher track quality.

The Confederation Line will have a faster travel time than the Transitway it replaced, in all segments. The savings will be greatest in the core, obviously, but there will still be a marginal improvement outside of it. Travel between Blair and Hurdman, for example, will probably be about two or three minutes faster. Between Tunney's and Lebreton, probably about a minute.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by JM1

The 7 is especially bad. It should use Waller south of Rideau, but for some ridiculous reason, they have it using Dalhousie. Extra five minutes of lights and turns and backtracking.

Knowing OC Transpo they likely did this in order to allow buses to continue serving the Rideau/Dalhousie bus stop, because in OC Transpo's lala land, five minutes of extra travel time is better than two minutes of extra walking.

[lrt's friend]

Making the Trillium Line with a transfer at Bayview the main north-south transit line including servicing all of Gatineau will make for a ludicrously unbalanced transit system. We better start planning our version of the DRL (Bank Street subway) right away. We will need it. We are not thinking right if we think a Bayview transfer is a good idea for both north and south of the river.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The cross boundary issue only applies when crossing into Quebec.

Did you read the link that I included about the Metro Vancouver transit improvements? Those were municipalities that were all in British Columbia and they wasted years upon years and still couldn't get a transit plan spanning their municipalities built.

I really do strongly suggest people read that as a case study. It's highly informative and not only for the fact that it proves that it isn't only a problem when crossing into another province.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Did you read the link that I included about the Metro Vancouver transit improvements? Those were municipalities that were all in British Columbia and they wasted years upon years and still couldn't get a transit plan spanning their municipalities built.

I really do strongly suggest people read that as a case study. It's highly informative and not only for the fact that it proves that it isn't only a problem when crossing into another province.

Local municipalities did not control transit after Regional government was formed in 1969 in Ottawa. This had nothing to do with why LRT was not built in the 1980s. Yes, there was obstruction before 1969 when the then OTC refused to extend service outside the Ottawa city limits.

I understand why you are bringing this up but it did not apply to Ottawa and neighbouring municipalities within the Regional government boundaries.

Transit was regionalized within a few years of Regional government being formed. I remember no municipal issues when the Eastern Transitway was extended into Gloucester in the late 1980s.

The worst I can remember was that it took a while to replace the private Beacon Hill Bullet with equivalent OC Transpo service, but that may have related to not having enough buses.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Personally, I think linking Gatineau (though not necessarily using the POW bridge) should be a higher priority than a Kanata extension, but I think a downtown north/south line should beat out both of them.

What route through downtown would make sense for a North/South route?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Did you read the link that I included about the Metro Vancouver transit improvements? Those were municipalities that were all in British Columbia and they wasted years upon years and still couldn't get a transit plan spanning their municipalities built.

I really do strongly suggest people read that as a case study. It's highly informative and not only for the fact that it proves that it isn't only a problem when crossing into another province.

Local municipalities pre-amalgamation had very limited responsibilities (parks, fire, local roads, libraries). Big ticket items (transit, police, major roads). Were the responsibility of RMOC. I don't know about BC, but I assume from your article it had a different system.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Making the Trillium Line with a transfer at Bayview the main north-south transit line including servicing all of Gatineau will make for a ludicrously unbalanced transit system. We better start planning our version of the DRL (Bank Street subway) right away. We will need it. We are not thinking right if we think a Bayview transfer is a good idea for both north and south of the river.

Toronto has survived their forced transfer for decades now, and the DRL is still just a piece of paper. I find it interesting that Vancouver chose to go the same way with the new evergreen line and force everyone to transfer at commercial-Broadway. At least Bayview will be a better transfer setup than that hugely disjointed station

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

An O-train extension on the PoW bridge could be done relatively quickly, and, I suspect, for relatively cheap, unless the traditional Ottawa overbuilders take charge of the file.

A north-south downtown line would be nice but much more expensive. If we eventually build another LRT line in the core, the priority route has to be Rideau-Montreal. That's where the next-highest demand is and where the serious bottlenecks are.


Nice deal if you're a suburbanite.

I wonder if a good route would be Billings to downtown, then turn east and run as far as at least at st Laurent under rideau. The west core is served by the confederation line, but the trillium line is too far west to serve the Glebe and the north south transitway is too far east. Vanier is the same scenario, the confederation line is too far south. I can't think of other parts of Ottawa dense enough to support more than what they are already planning (if you include the baseline brt)