Domain/North Austin Development Updates

[We vs us]

Wow, you guys pulled some great info . . . and it's much more in depth than I first realized (with all the standard "if it gets built" caveats).

It really would be like a second downtown -- no fooling.

[The ATX]

The tallest building in the renderings would be quite a step up from the typical box office building:

[Novacek]

So I attended a Burnet corridor planning/information meeting last night.

https://www.austintexas.gov/northlamarburnet

It was mostly an informational meeting giving an update on what they've done and are planning to do with the 2012 (not 2016) bond money that was allocated for the corridor.

Part of it was letting everyone know that certain projects will be paused slightly to better plan and coordinate now that they have(or will have) a much larger pot of money from the 2016 bond. As a taxpayer, I approve of this. It's good to minimize the amount of work you do that will get immediately/soon ripped out again.

Sounds like they're doing short term sidewalk infill of gaps and possibly other short term safety fixes.


Unrelated to the general meeting content, one of the CoA employees (I didn't catch her name) did mention that she had heard of a potential second rail stop at the IBM redevelopment. From her, it sounded like it was still up in the air as to whether it would be moving the existing one or an additional one.
To me 2 sounds potential excessive. That would be a spacing of about half a mile. For reference, the downtown station to plaza saltillo is about 3/4 mile.

I'm hoping that she's not on this board, and that I'm not the source of this rumor

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by We vs us

Wow, you guys pulled some great info . . . and it's much more in depth than I first realized (with all the standard "if it gets built" caveats).

It really would be like a second downtown -- no fooling.

Now consider that this + Domain is less than 1/3 of North Burnet Gateway.

[We vs us]

Originally Posted by Novacek

Now consider that this + Domain is less than 1/3 of North Burnet Gateway.

Good point. There's really a huge amount of potential up that way -- between open tracts of land (which are admittedly now filling in) and low land value warehouses, light industrial, that sort of thing. I don't know the official boundaries of the gateway if there is such a thing, but just knowing it (lived there for my first year and a half in Austin) you can see from the street that there's a whole lot more to do.

In re: the metro station -- I think you're right that two would be overkill with the system as it it (single lane, two cars per train, limited number of trips) and even as it could be in the near future . . . but I could definitely see a more advanced station being built on the IBM property, with better right of ways, parking, pedestrian access, etc. As it stands now, the Kramer platform really seems an afterthought, with not much physical room to make it improvements.

[We vs us]

Originally Posted by The ATX

The tallest building in the renderings would be quite a step up from the typical box office building:

If it fills in that way, height would definitely seem warranted.

[ahealy]

I really believe Burnet/Domain is the next urban hub of Austin

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by We vs us

I don't know the official boundaries of the gateway if there is such a thing,

More than you ever wanted to know

ftp://ftp.ci.austin.tx.us/npzd/Austingo/nbg-np.pdf

page 9 has a map.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by ahealy

I really believe Burnet/Domain is the next urban hub of Austin

This is probably true is development starts kicking into high gear. In fact, I anticipate that as this area becomes more dense and mixed-use, that the red line will start picking up commuters into North Burnet / Domain from both ends and will develop probably 4-5 stations overall (as any downtown would have at a minimum). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see the red line as fundamentally North Burnet centric, as if that is a separate urban core with two lines: one extending south into the Austin historic downtown and one north into Cedar Park.

Furthermore, what this really underscores is the need for Austin to vigorously buy out the MoPac rail line so that we can use commuter rail on it locally. Build a separate track to the east. In the median of 130? Who cares where. The way the rail lines are built through North Austin would allow variable service into the Domain and North Burnet from the North. You could run trains from Round Rock to both the Domain / North Burnet west and east tracks as well as doing the same for trains inbound from Cedar Park because they interchange with each other already around McNeil. More and more employers are locating here, and therefore more and more inbound commuters there will be. And the more dense it becomes, the more it is a destination in its own right drawing in riders.

If we could do that and then simply extend both of the two lines further into downtown and buy a lot downtown somewhere so that we can turn both the tracks (which have cars with wide turning radii at, I think, ~328 feet) onto a north/south street (that's where we should build the really nice grand central station) and then simply run it all the way to MLK and just stop there (for now), that solves our rail problem entirely. It hits the both of our choice employment cores and the employment density nodes within them and by drawing riders who don't have to transfer we increase ridership.

For instance, this system which satisfies all the above by utilizing a short subterranean section for minimal traffic disruption:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pi...-Y&usp=sharing

[ahealy]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

This is probably true is development starts kicking into high gear. In fact, I anticipate that as this area becomes more dense and mixed-use, that the red line will start picking up commuters into North Burnet / Domain from both ends and will develop probably 4-5 stations overall (as any downtown would have at a minimum). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see the red line as fundamentally North Burnet centric, as if that is a separate urban core with two lines: one extending south into the Austin historic downtown and one north into Cedar Park.

Furthermore, what this really underscores is the need for Austin to vigorously buy out the MoPac rail line so that we can use commuter rail on it locally. Build a separate track to the east. In the median of 130? Who cares where. The way the rail lines are built through North Austin would allow variable service into the Domain and North Burnet from the North. You could run trains from Round Rock to both the Domain / North Burnet west and east tracks as well as doing the same for trains inbound from Cedar Park because they interchange with each other already around McNeil. More and more employers are locating here, and therefore more and more inbound commuters there will be. And the more dense it becomes, the more it is a destination in its own right drawing in riders.

If we could do that and then simply extend both of the two lines further into downtown and buy a lot downtown somewhere so that we can turn both the tracks (which have cars with wide turning radii at, I think, ~328 feet) onto a north/south street (that's where we should build the really nice grand central station) and then simply run it all the way to MLK and just stop there (for now), that solves our rail problem entirely. It hits the both of our choice employment cores and the employment density nodes within them and by drawing riders who don't have to transfer we increase ridership.

For instance, this system which satisfies all the above by utilizing a short subterranean section for minimal traffic disruption:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pi...-Y&usp=sharing

YES YES YES! I totally agree. Burnet also needs to keep building mixed-use apts and add micro-housing. There is SO much potential for urban growth on Burnet, North Lamar, Koenig and Anderson. Its INSANE.

[hereinaustin]

Originally Posted by ahealy

YES YES YES! I totally agree. Burnet also needs to keep building mixed-use apts and add micro-housing. There is SO much potential for urban growth on Burnet, North Lamar, Koenig and Anderson. Its INSANE.

I would like to see Capital Metro purchase the Union Pacific line/right of way running from San Marcos to Georgetown. See the highlighted portion of the image below. UP owns the red lines. CMTY = Capital Metro.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by hereinaustin

I would like to see Capital Metro purchase the Union Pacific line/right of way running from San Marcos to Georgetown. See the highlighted portion of the image below. UP owns the red lines. CMTY = Capital Metro.

I didn't realize that Capital Metro owned the lines into Burnet and Llano Counties.

I agree on the line along I-35 absolutely. It's either purchase that one and make use of it or build something new along the same corridor. Either way, something needs to happen.



Back to the North Burnet/Gateway - I agree that it will densify and grow more and more in the coming years/decades. Better to plan for things now than look back and say, "Ah crap, we missed our opportunity."

[llamaorama]

I didn't realize that Capital Metro owned the lines into Burnet and Llano Counties.

Capital Metro bought the line in 1986 when Southern Pacific sought to abandon it. Turning it into commuter rail was an idea that had been considered for a long time, and there were tests with modern commuter trains back in the 90s. Since that time they have contracted out freight operations to various private companies, Austin and Western Railroad is the current operator and IIRC the longest lasting. The line carries a lot of stone products and also serves a few industrial plants like Abbott Labs off Howard @Mopacs. As far as I know the furthest any trains go west is to Marble Falls.

Historically, the line started out as the Austin and Northwestern Railroad. It was built in 1881 IIRC. The granite used to build the Texas State Capitol was hauled by the railroad from a quarry near Marble Falls, and there are still giant marble blocks under the bridge over the San Gabriel River left over from an accident. Later it became part of Houston and Texas Central railroad, and then that became part of Southern Pacific(SP later was merged into UP, but that was in the 90s after they sold the line)

The line used to have a branch at Burnet which went to Lampasas to connect to the Santa Fe. That line closed long ago, there are still stubs in Burnet and Lampasas(or was, in the early 2000's, when I was a kid and explored/researched all this stuff).

I don't have a date for when the tracks between Burnet and Llano went out of service, but around 2001 or 2002 they were revitalized by TXDOT. However no new freight service was ever added because there were no industrial customers that far down the line. Austin Steam Train has done fan excursions down the line which is why there are occasionally some random old passenger cars parked in Llano.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Capital Metro bought the line in 1986 when Southern Pacific sought to abandon it. Turning it into commuter rail was an idea that had been considered for a long time, and there were tests with modern commuter trains back in the 90s. Since that time they have contracted out freight operations to various private companies, Austin and Western Railroad is the current operator and IIRC the longest lasting. The line carries a lot of stone products and also serves a few industrial plants like Abbott Labs off Howard @Mopacs. As far as I know the furthest any trains go west is to Marble Falls.

Historically, the line started out as the Austin and Northwestern Railroad. It was built in 1881 IIRC. The granite used to build the Texas State Capitol was hauled by the railroad from a quarry near Marble Falls, and there are still giant marble blocks under the bridge over the San Gabriel River left over from an accident. Later it became part of Houston and Texas Central railroad, and then that became part of Southern Pacific(SP later was merged into UP, but that was in the 90s after they sold the line)

The line used to have a branch at Burnet which went to Lampasas to connect to the Santa Fe. That line closed long ago, there are still stubs in Burnet and Lampasas(or was, in the early 2000's, when I was a kid and explored/researched all this stuff).

I don't have a date for when the tracks between Burnet and Llano went out of service, but around 2001 or 2002 they were revitalized by TXDOT. However no new freight service was ever added because there were no industrial customers that far down the line. Austin Steam Train has done fan excursions down the line which is why there are occasionally some random old passenger cars parked in Llano.

That was a nice history lesson.

[wwmiv]

Like literally, I'll build out a full line map here in a moment. It is the best possible system we can imagine, at the cheapest possible cost, with the largest short, medium, and long-term ridership potential. We've already got BRT on Burnet, but it we ever wanted to replace that, all we'd have to do is extend the black line further north to Crestview bringing it above ground along the way somewhere to merge with the red line again with stops at the Triangle and at the northern end of the Drag for even MORE variable service into downtown.

It is a shame that regional leaders can't seem to shake their heads from their asses. They have learned the wrong lessons from literally every public transportation package that they have put to voters over the last 20 years, and their thinking has followed a predictable pattern of shrinkage away from grander visions.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

This is probably true is development starts kicking into high gear. In fact, I anticipate that as this area becomes more dense and mixed-use, that the red line will start picking up commuters into North Burnet / Domain from both ends and will develop probably 4-5 stations overall (as any downtown would have at a minimum). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to eventually see the red line as fundamentally North Burnet centric, as if that is a separate urban core with two lines: one extending south into the Austin historic downtown and one north into Cedar Park.

Then (without getting too far off the N Burnet thread hopefully, it'll be mutually supportive) add a couple more Red Line stops in Robinson Ranch when that finally starts to develop.

6000 acres. 10 times the size of Mueller.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2004-05-28/212975/

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Novacek

Then (without getting too far off the N Burnet thread hopefully, it'll be mutually supportive) add a couple more Red Line stops in Robinson Ranch when that finally starts to develop.

6000 acres. 10 times the size of Mueller.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2004-05-28/212975/

https://communityimpact.com/austin/n...ment-in-limbo/

I doubt that most of that land area will ever be built out in New Urbanist fashion.

[drummer]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

Capital Metro bought the line in 1986 when Southern Pacific sought to abandon it. Turning it into commuter rail was an idea that had been considered for a long time, and there were tests with modern commuter trains back in the 90s. Since that time they have contracted out freight operations to various private companies, Austin and Western Railroad is the current operator and IIRC the longest lasting. The line carries a lot of stone products and also serves a few industrial plants like Abbott Labs off Howard @Mopacs. As far as I know the furthest any trains go west is to Marble Falls.

Historically, the line started out as the Austin and Northwestern Railroad. It was built in 1881 IIRC. The granite used to build the Texas State Capitol was hauled by the railroad from a quarry near Marble Falls, and there are still giant marble blocks under the bridge over the San Gabriel River left over from an accident. Later it became part of Houston and Texas Central railroad, and then that became part of Southern Pacific(SP later was merged into UP, but that was in the 90s after they sold the line)

The line used to have a branch at Burnet which went to Lampasas to connect to the Santa Fe. That line closed long ago, there are still stubs in Burnet and Lampasas(or was, in the early 2000's, when I was a kid and explored/researched all this stuff).

I don't have a date for when the tracks between Burnet and Llano went out of service, but around 2001 or 2002 they were revitalized by TXDOT. However no new freight service was ever added because there were no industrial customers that far down the line. Austin Steam Train has done fan excursions down the line which is why there are occasionally some random old passenger cars parked in Llano.

Originally Posted by The ATX

That was a nice history lesson.

Indeed it was! Thanks for that, llamaorama. I grew up in the Marble Falls area years ago and can confirm that the trains go there but not any farther (or at least that was the case when I was there). They still work with Granite Mountain and the lime/chalk plants in town owned by Huber, if I remember correctly. I know that the spur to Marble Falls was built when the granite from the quarry there was used to rebuild the State Capitol building. If it weren't for that

If a regional train system were to ever become a reality (after Austin proper gets its junk together, of course), and Burnet County were a consideration for rail as population increases demand it (decades and decades down the road, I'm sure)...I think the current rail route would be less than desirable. It seems to me that an extension of the Red Line could work to Liberty Hill and maybe to Burnet, but if folks from Marble Falls, Horseshoe Bay, Granite Shoals, etc. (southern Burnet County, where most of the growth is), wanted to commute into Austin by rail, a line along Hwy. 71 would be much preferred. I know my family in Marble Falls says that there are some pretty large plans for the 281/71 intersection, especially now that the new hospital there is completed. Growth along that corridor (Marble Falls to Spicewood to Lakeway, etc.) is seemingly about to explode, according to locals.

[ahealy]

one thing missing on Burnet: A boutique Hotel
Mark my words...it's only a matter of time.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by ahealy

one thing missing on Burnet: A boutique Hotel
Mark my words...it's only a matter of time.

That would be a safe bet.