LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 6.0

[a very long weekend]

The dtla streetcar isn't just important to shuttle tourists around and move people from their metro station to their work. It's also an investment in a certain kind of future dtla. Pedestrian-focused development, fewer cars, greater connectivity between downtown hoods.

[202_Cyclist]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

Matt Yglesias has a good post on why the DC streetcar isn't only a waste of money, it's actively bad transit:

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/23/7048057/dc-streetcar-bad-transit

Details matter, as they do with every project. But this is a mode of transit that we should be inherently skeptical of in the US.

The article above was written a year and a half prior to the H Street streetcar opening. I won't defend all of shortcomings with the planning and construction of the streetcar but I will note that it has been a very important economic catalyst for the H Street corridor, which had been a blighted part of Washington for decades. The H Street corridor is already vastly transformed because of the induced development resulting from the streetcar. There are approximately 1,500 more housing units planned along the H Street corridor: http://dc.urbanturf.com/articles/blog/1458_new_units_are_on_tap_for_the_h_street_corridor/10720 .

I would also note that the H Street streetcar in Washington is still very much a work in progress, with only the first phase open (Benning Road - Union Station). Ridership has already been fairly robust and it will be even more so when the streetcar is extended west to connect destinations throughout downtown and Georgetown.

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by a very long weekend

The dtla streetcar isn't just important to shuttle tourists around and move people from their metro station to their work. It's also an investment in a certain kind of future dtla. Pedestrian-focused development, fewer cars, greater connectivity between downtown hoods.

Well then it's not really a transit project, it's just a subsidy for yuppie gentrification.

[caligrad]

Originally Posted by Valyrian Steel

Nah, that would create a ton of dead-ends for the side streets

Originally Posted by ChelseaFC

To avoid that, you would essentially have to do the same for every other east-west street (4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, etc.) between Hill and Spring, thereby making everything on the outside a T-intersection. Would make deliveries and basic logistics nearly impossible for too many businesses.

My initial red flag was more so on the businesses/parking garages/driveways along Broadway being a nightmare to deal with in terms of deliveries, traffic flow and etc. I don't think neither one of us even thought of the east/west streets. But i guess he imagined the east/west routes would function as they do in Santa Monica where street traffic still flows through. I just thought it was an interesting concept that would be too much of a nightmare to implement but would actually be pretty cool with the "old classic Broadway street" feel with a streetcar down the center.

[caligrad]

I think we can all agree that the streetcar has its perks but also has a lot of flaws. Seems like this conversation comes around once a month.... and the same people saying the same thing put in their same 2 cents to the same conversation that comes back around the same time every month

There will always be

Team streetcar

And there will always be

Team No Streetcar

And there will always be

Team don't really give a DA** either way
(Me and a few others)

Is it absolutely NEEDED? No. Is it nice to have? YES. Would it make transit downtown easier ? So-So. Could it have been planned a whole lot better? DEFINITELY

I get both sides of the argument. I really do. But three-four pages later, lets curb the conversation

How's the progress on Onnis 1212 flower twins or their 50 story? how's Circa and Oceanside looking? how's metropolis tallest tower coming along? Can we discuss how odd the helipad looks on the WG tower? saw that thing driving along the 10 like WHOA. Its way bigger than I thought it would be.

[black_crow]

Originally Posted by caligrad

I think we can all agree that the streetcar has its perks but also has a lot of flaws. Seems like this conversation comes around once a month.... and the same people saying the same thing put in their same 2 cents to the same conversation that comes back around the same time every month

There will always be

Team streetcar

And there will always be

Team No Streetcar

And there will always be

Team don't really give a DA** either way
(Me and a few others)

That's true, but at least we are all polite.

I am out of space anyway. I grew up on a different planet where public transportation was on a different level.
The only time I would drive the bus was to get to our light rail - and our light rail / high speed trains were fast, very fast.

... so fast that we needed the Autobahn for our car-owners (no speed limits, less deadly accidents than other galaxies).

But I might have dreamed all that. I am not sure anymore.
I would like a burger now.

.

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by black_crow

That's true, but at least we are all polite.

I am out of space anyway. I grew up on a different planet where public transportation was on a different level.
The only time I would drive the bus was to get to our light rail - and our light rail / high speed trains were fast, very fast.

... so fast that we needed the Autobahn for our car-owners (no speed limits, less deadly accidents than other galaxies).

But I might have dreamed all that. I am not sure anymore.
I would like a burger now.

.

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[cesar90]

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[Resident]

Originally Posted by caligrad

My initial red flag was more so on the businesses/parking garages/driveways along Broadway being a nightmare to deal with in terms of deliveries, traffic flow and etc. I don't think neither one of us even thought of the east/west streets. But i guess he imagined the east/west routes would function as they do in Santa Monica where street traffic still flows through. I just thought it was an interesting concept that would be too much of a nightmare to implement but would actually be pretty cool with the "old classic Broadway street" feel with a streetcar down the center.

Your idea for shutting down Broadway like 3rd street is in the ~10 year plan. Start from 3rd to 7th and then eventually go south if it works.

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by Resident

A project that would connect DTLA and allow the residents of DTLA, among others, to get around without a car and have a better neighborhood is "Yuppie Gentrification." As one of the actual "Yuppies" who lives in DTLA and would like DTLA to be a better place, F$#k off.

You do realize that mixed traffic streetcars offer a decrease in mobility relative to a bus, right?How about before you go off on your dumb, self-righteous rants you actually try addressing the criticisms brought against streetcars in my previous post.

If you actually cared about mobility you wouldn't be advocating for this project as it doesn't offer any increase relative to alternative investments.

[Resident]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

You do realize that mixed traffic streetcars offer a decrease in mobility relative to a bus, right?How about before you go off on your dumb, self-righteous rants you actually try addressing the criticisms brought against streetcars in my previous post.

If you actually cared about mobility you wouldn't be advocating for this project as it doesn't offer any increase relative to alternative investments.

I actually live downtown. I care about a project that people will actually ride and use. Nobody who lives here rides the Dashes around. Everybody would use a streetcar. Stuff that "Yuppies" would actually use. I really don't care that you found some article written 2 years before a streetcar in Washington was finished and I, along with everybody else who lives in Downtown, don't care about these "mobility" options that are not on the table.

[scania]

Originally Posted by Resident

I actually live downtown. I care about a project that people will actually ride and use. Nobody who lives here rides the Dashes around. Everybody would use a streetcar. Stuff that "Yuppies" would actually use. I really don't care that you found some article written 2 years before a streetcar in Washington was finished and I, along with everybody else who lives in Downtown, don't care about these "mobility" options that are not on the table.

I actually live downtown too...you don't really think all of us yuppies feel the same way?

[Resident]

Originally Posted by scania

I actually live downtown too...you don't really think all of us yuppies feel the same way?

10% would use it daily, 56% would use it weekly, 4% would use it monthly, 15% would use it a few times a year, and 15% would never use. I actually took a survey of DTLA residents, so I think I know what we/they would like with the streetcar.

[Resident]

I'll give you more Data. People always say we should just add more Dash routes instead of building the streetcar. Right now:

7% ride Dash daily, 16% weekly, 14% monthly, 27% a few times a year, and 36% have never ridden the Dash.

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by Resident

I actually live downtown. I care about a project that people will actually ride and use. Nobody who lives here rides the Dashes around. Everybody would use a streetcar. Stuff that "Yuppies" would actually use. I really don't care that you found some article written 2 years before a streetcar in Washington was finished and I, along with everybody else who lives in Downtown, don't care about these "mobility" options that are not on the table.

Thank you for confirming my point. You only care about making transit trendy, not better.

[ChargerCarl]

Originally Posted by Resident

10% would use it daily, 56% would use it weekly, 4% would use it monthly, 15% would use it a few times a year, and 15% would never use. I actually took a survey of DTLA residents, so I think I know what we/they would like with the streetcar.

I mean Im sure a large amount of people in Thousand Oaks would love a subway connection from their neighborhood to the basin, but that doesn't mean its a cost efficient investment...

[Easy]

Originally Posted by Resident

I actually live downtown. I care about a project that people will actually ride and use. Nobody who lives here rides the Dashes around. Everybody would use a streetcar. Stuff that "Yuppies" would actually use. I really don't care that you found some article written 2 years before a streetcar in Washington was finished and I, along with everybody else who lives in Downtown, don't care about these "mobility" options that are not on the table.

I also live downtown except I do ride Dash and Metro buses so this streetcar isn't for people like me - transit riders. It's for people that don't typically ride transit or who occasionally ride trains. And who knows how many of those people will be like you and ride it. Or may try it and decide that it's not for them after all.

That being said I'll also ride it depending on convenience. It goes right by where I live and goes to some of my routine destinations so it makes sense. But I'll still mostly ride buses because I find them to be more reliable and obviously more widespread. Especially downtown.

But what I'm afraid will happen is that many are going to find out that the reality of the streetcar isn't going to be what they'd imagined. We know the cool part. It's on tracks and is easily identifiable and runs in a loop. We can get on anywhere and get off anywhere as it runs a loop all day. Sounds good right! But there's a problem.

A big problem on transit in LA is crazy and smelly homeless people. Regular people don't want to be riding mobile flop houses and honestly that's often what some buses and trains can feel like. I'm looking at you blue line. Now the epicenter of homelessness is downtown. What is to stop someone from paying a single fare (or not paying) and riding around in a loop most of the day? These trains are going to have a severe problem with the homeless. Almost no way to avoid it.

And this doesn't even take into consideration the huge advantage in mobility that buses have. A collision, even a relatively minor one, can temporarily shut down a street running train, whereas a bus would easily drive around it. If you've ridden the blue line for any time you know that collisions not involving trains comprise a significant portion of delays.

I could go on, but you've likely already stopped reading. Haha

[Easy]

Originally Posted by Resident

I'll give you more Data. People always say we should just add more Dash routes instead of building the streetcar. Right now:

7% ride Dash daily, 16% weekly, 14% monthly, 27% a few times a year, and 36% have never ridden the Dash.

I ride Dash maybe 2 times a month. I'd ride more if it ran later and had routes that fit me better.

And it's hard to predict what occasional transit riders will do with a streetcar. I'm sure most people will try it and many people that live close will ride it at least sometimes, but just how much is hard to predict. But they are who it's being built for. It's not being built for people that already use transit regularly and certainly not for people that depend on transit. It's like transit training wheels.

[King Kill 'em]

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

I mean Im sure a large amount of people in Thousand Oaks would love a subway connection from their neighborhood to the basin, but that doesn't mean its a cost efficient investment...

I've seen multiple times online, people in the west valley and ventura county asking why don't they build a subway down Ventura blvd. because 101 traffic is so bad for them, and that'd cost like $30-$40 billion.

[blackcat23]

Renderings revealed for AvalonBay Arts District development