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  #441  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 6:54 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
NCC does not.
Hospital wants free land and that's what NCC has to offer. Hospital can reject it all together, buy properties around current site and expand however they like.
Which is probably what they would be doing, if the current civic were surrounded by the homes and businesses of less affluent and less well connected people than the surgeons and hospital administrators and deputy ministers who live in the surrounding blocks.
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  #442  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:01 PM
Mikeed Mikeed is offline
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== Background / Canada's Wonderland & the new Billion dollar Vaughan Hospital ==

The debate over the New Civic Campus can be improved with some contextual comparisons with other Ontario hospitals under development. By some chance I was zooming around Toronto in Google Earth, not sure why originally, but eventually I was over Vaughan and looking at Canada's Wonderland. Now, I know at least back home every once and awhile the rumour would come up that Canada's Wonderland was 'stuck' with nowhere to expand and was considering a move of the whole park- this was more based on a commentary about the explosive growth of all the ticky-tacky suburbs in Vaughan and less so based on reality. Case in point, anyone who looks at the area will see that nearly 1/3rd of Canada's Wonderland's property is surface parking lots, and that condensing that into parking garages could easily free up a quarter of the size of the current park for development. Their latest megacoaster seems to be designed in preparation for that eventuality.

Key facts:
Canada's Wonderland's parking lot is "over 3 million square feet with 10,300 parking spaces", this is roughly 70 acres. Wikipedia reports the park is 330 acres.



== Vaughan's New $1 Billion Dollar Hospital ==

Now, this is an aside, as the main story is the large lot next door that is integrated into the rest of Canada's Wonderland's property with access roads via underpasses under the avenue. The presence of these underpasses made me assume that it was owned by Canada's Wonderland- and it was, till it was sold for the development of a new $1 billion dollar hospital for Vaughan. And boy, did that send me down a rabbit hole...

Now at this point I need to do a whole scale revision of what I had wrote as basically every source quotes a different size of the property, and how much it was sold for. Originally I had wrote a comparison based on 25 acre quotes; wondering why there was such a difference in sizes. This article seems to have the full story.

- the City of Vaughan has provided a lease on "up to 50 acres of land" for the future hospital.
- the lease deal provides 40 acres with an additional 10 for potential expansion.
- in 2009, the city agreed to pay $60 million to purchase the 82 acre property.
- the city also committed to providing another $20 million to help develop the land into a "state-of-the-art, health-care campus, complete with a full-service hospital and ancillary health care services such as a long-term care facility, laboratories and some type of medical research or education facility."
- this $80 million dollar investment is being paid back through a special levy on Vaughan taxpayers expected to last to 2022, this started in 2009
- "a complicated land deal", as the Star reports, "has held up the plan for years"
- this plan has also been controversial due to the regular NIMBYs, but more significantly due to the private developer / operator of the hospital. In what I can only call an angry NIMBY groups website, has reported that "Mackenzie Health has increased their demands for land from 40 acres to 50 acres to 62 acres"

The 82 acre property:



The '50 acre' plan?



How this plan- stated as 'up to 50 acres'- and the reported size of the property being 82 acres, jells, is beyond me at this point. What is clear is that across Ontario hospital development takes up large properties and no one seems to be able to clearly express what is reality.

Also, one thing to consider, that ~$80 million dollars could provide a substantial envelope to prepare Tunney's Pasture and provide for a hybrid solution to parking: both multi-level garage and surface parking. When you consider that nowhere else in Ontario would a municipality have the ability to get 60-80 acres for development for free.

A full comparison between the Vaughan Hospital, the Civic and other Hospitals would be nice, but I'm not a paid journalist- journalists who really should be investigating this more fully. But allow me to do my best for the moment.

== A summary of the Civic Hospital's perspective ==
Ottawa Hospital: New Civic Hospital

Our goal is to build a cost-conscious world-class facility that meets modern health-care standards, and improves patient experience and outcomes. The world’s best health-care design experts concluded that we need 50 to 60 acres of land, in a central area, to achieve our goal.

The requirements outlined for our new Campus, including its size, are also largely based on our desire to make the most of the funding available to us.

A lower building costs less to build and maintain. A surface parking lot can save our community hundreds of millions of dollars. Given the choice, we will prioritize health-care programs and equipment over things like underground parking. As the region’s trusted health-care provider, our community’s health needs will always be our priority.

+ Building and Expansion - 25 acres

"21st century hospitals offer intuitive layouts; minimal distance between intake, diagnostics and treatment; dedicated routes for emergency patient transport; and private patient rooms. This layout has been proven to improve flow and access to treatments; reduce hospital stays, the spread of infections, stress and the need for pain medication; and brighten the attitudes of patients and their families, along with hospital workers."

+ Exterior Wellness Areas - 7 acres

"Modern hospitals offer therapeutic healing gardens, outdoor or enclosed patios, and large windows that provide ample natural light"

+ Access - 6 acres

"This means easy access for emergency vehicles, many points of entry, quick drop-offs, links to walking and cycling paths, and good parking and transit service."

+ Parking - 15-20 acres

"Creating surface parking would save taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars. Underground parking would increase costs by $275 million; an above-ground garage by $84 million - costs that are not funded by the government. We are committed to consulting the community on this topic."

Current Civic Campus parking statistics: There are approximately 1,200 visitor spots at the Civic. Visitor lots at the Civic are at 100% capacity during the week; 95% occupancy on Ruskin Street. 6,200 people worked at the Civic in 2015 - approximately 150 spots are reserved for staff onsite and another 1,200 offsite. There are an additional 3,400 physicians, residents, fellows and medical students who move between our three campuses. We run intercampus shuttle buses throughout the day for staff, volunteers and trainees. / as an aside- this seems to be a big plus for the LRT connection Tunney's offers. /

We need ~3,400 spaces to meet future demand.

Estimated Costs of Parking Modes:
- Surface: $16 million
- Above Ground: $100 million
- Underground: $291 million

One can estimate that ~$80 million could provide the ~3,400 spaces in a hybrid option, with a majority in multi-level garages.

The province does not fund costs for parking facilities. "Funding solutions" would be required to implement the more expensive parking options.
/ my added quotations, the Feds/City could come to the table here, and I think that's the implication. /



== Tunney's Pasture ==



+ Total size of Tunney's Pasture: 121 acres
+ 10,655 employees currently
+ Modal Splits: 36% public transit; 10% walk / cycle; 54% motorized vehicles
+ Civic Hospital parcel: 50 acres (supposed magic number)

As reported in the CBC circa 2011:
"Some federal government buildings in Ottawa's Tunney's Pasture area will be vacated in 2015, according to a representative from the Public Service Alliance of Canada (PSAC)."Many workers have also said a lack of clean water is among the most common concerns of employees at Tunney's Pasture, according to PSAC." Four buildings at Tunney's are rated in "Poor" condition, "Five" as fair.

1) R.H. Coats Building (26 storeys)
2) Finance Building (3 storeys)* ('good condition', in Yarrow & Sorrel Block- slated for redevelopment)
3) Statistics Canada Main Building (2 storeys)
4) Standard Lab Building (2 storeys)
5) Jean Talon Building (14 storeys)
6) Laboratory Centre for Disease Control (4 storeys)
7) Health Protection Building(3 storeys)
8) Environmental Health Centre (3 storeys)
9) Brooke Claxton Building (16 storeys)
10) Butler Hut (1 storey)
11) Animal Breeding Building (2 storeys)
12) Central Heating & Cooling Plant (3 storeys)
13) Finance Annex (2 storeys)* ('poor condition', in Yarrow & Sorrel Block- marked for redevelopment)
14) Public Archives General Records Centre (2 storeys)*
15) DND Building (4 storeys)*
16) Occupational Health Unit Bldg (1 storey)* ('good condition', marked for redevelopment)
17) Public Archives Personnel Records Centre (4 storeys)*
18) Jeanne Mance Building (21 storeys)
19) Sir Frederick G. Banting Research Centre (4 storeys)

2, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, are all marked for development, have no significant long term value, I believe will be on the table if this goes forward to a proper planning stage. Upgrades to the Central Heating & Cooling Plant (12) are possible so as to feed the hospital. My prediction is this will draw the main hospital closer to the centre of the campus, along the goldenrod axis and closer to the LRT station. With a new road crossing the transitway trench, and a new interchange at the Parkway- it's lanes have been tightened up- at the Northwest corner at Banting.



'Poor' rating (year built)
#7 Health Protection Building (1956)
#14 Finance Annex Building (1958)
#15 General Records Centre (1957)*
#17 Personnel Records Building (1965)*

'Fair' rating
#3 Statistics Canada Building (1952)
#4 Standards lab Building (1954)
#11 Butler Hut (1955)
#13: Central heating plant (1952)
#15 DND Data Centre (1962)*



I think this graphic really shows the potential strength for the site: which is the integration of a major research hospital, and the heart institute (potentially), both have strong connections with the University of Ottawa and Carleton (linked by rail), within the larger Health Canada campus. The National Defence building will likely end up being moved to the Carling DNDHQ Campus, and the two records buildings are both 'poor' rating and could possibly be demo-ready now, assuming the PSAC has been prep-ing them for their eventual demolition over the past 5 years. Regardless, records buildings used for storage I don't think represent much of a hurdle. Also, the block bound by Sorrel Dr. and Yarrow Dr. is also slated for re-development, so that could potentially be added to the plan during the design phase. Currently the parcel chosen is really just the residential zoned 'Western Precinct' from the 2014 Master Plan.

It's noteworthy that buildings 10, 11, & 6, and the Sir Frederick G Banting Research Centre (19), are home to Health Canada labs and offices that include:

+ Environmental Health Science and Research Bureau
+ Bureau of Chemical Safety; Food Research Division, Toxicology Research Division
+ Bureau of Nutritional Sciences
+ Bureau of Microbial Hazards; Microbiology Research Division
+ Scientific Services Division
+ Biologics and Genetic Therapies Directorate
+ The Centre for Vaccine Evaluation
+ Blood Safety Surveillance and Health Care Acquired Infections Division
+ Community Acquired Infections Division
+ HIV/AIDS Policy, Coordination and Programs Division
+ National HIV and Retrovirology Laboratories
+ Surveillance and Risk Assessment Division



Not sure if you're making a compelling case that it is isolated when you show it has 5 road intersections- two with what is essentially a freeway, another 2 with the main east/west avenue to the downtown core. Close to the 417 and connected via rail to the pre-war suburbs, the downtown core, 3 universities/colleges, the train station and airport, and all suburbs east/west and south.

== Current 25 Year Master Plan ===
2009 - 2014 (5 year development?!)



+ office for approx. 22,000 – 25,000 employees;
+ multi-unit residential for approx. 3,400 – 3,700 units, ~9,000 residents







The current master plan that basically had almost the whole 50 acre site- the "Western Precinct"- zoned for residential. Eventually roughly 9,000 residents surrounding national research laboratories and Health Canada office buildings. Given the soft market and abundance of development lands on the Flats, and down the Trillium line corridor. It's unlikely this whole development would have been feasible in the 25-30 year horizon, imo.

Notes from Meeting Minutes (NCC) of the Tunney's Pasture 25 years Master Plan:

Dec, 2009-
+ The vocabulary used in the master plan should
reflect a stronger commitment towards residential
development.
+ PWGSC should find a way to allow different
uses in the redevelopment scheme. Economic,
financial, real estate models should be developed
and presented to the government in addition to
the planning dimension of the project.
+ There should be more than one scenario,
including one that really pushes the limits and
goes beyond the 30-year projection.

March, 2010-
+ The NCC should not allow this site to be transformed into
another campus but should promote the idea of
capital building. Integrating this site with the
neighbouring community will enable the
infrastructure and commercial scheme to be
successful. / (the thinking of the time)
+ While PWGSC outlined the roadblocks, at least in the short term, with respect
to residential development on Tunney’s Pasture,
most participants considered densification and
mixed-use development on this site essential. More
single use office space would lead to more demand
for parking and create the same kind of
environment that currently exists and that
obviously does not work
+ The committee urged PWGSC to apply the
profession’s current best practices of urban design,
which include mixed-use, and to examine ways in
which the rules can change to accommodate this. It
was considered essential to change the mindset of
decision makers; otherwise, the same scenarios will
repeat themselves (traffic congestion, parking
problems, unpleasant environment, etc.).

Oct, 2013-
+ Members supported the direction of the
Tunney’s Pasture Master Plan that was
presented, and they were prepared to accept the
principle of a future connection to the Sir John A.
Macdonald Parkway at Banting, subject to future
analysis, and to the closure of the intersection at
Goldenrod Avenue.
+The future connection should ... be shown on the
concept development plan as a possibility only / (it shows up nowhere in the final master plan)


Might have gone over board, but this is basically my notes after a bit of research.
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Last edited by Mikeed; Nov 28, 2016 at 7:29 PM.
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  #443  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:15 PM
little italian little italian is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Which is probably what they would be doing, if the current civic were surrounded by the homes and businesses of less affluent and less well connected people than the surgeons and hospital administrators and deputy ministers who live in the surrounding blocks.
This! Also, I highly suspect that these same connected residents are the ones driving the "save the farm" campaign. They are really the only clear winners with the Tunney's vote.
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  #444  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:17 PM
Southpaw78 Southpaw78 is offline
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
NCC does not.
Hospital wants free land and that's what NCC has to offer. Hospital can reject it all together, buy properties around current site and expand however they like.
OK thanks!! I hadn't seen that anywhere so appreciate your sharing that info.

What's the catch though (if any) with NCC giving free land?
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  #445  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:41 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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They are 2 km from the Toronto waterfront, just a few pixels away from the word "Downtown" on the Google map of Toronto, and 15 km from the northern boundary of Toronto with the first ring of 905 suburbs.

So, yes, they are "fairly centrally located within the catchment", which is something we need to aim for in Ottawa. The current Civic is central-ish, but could be central-er.



Indeed, which is why i like the Tunney's site, myself. Also, if I ever (knock wood) have to be transported as a casualty to the Civic, I'd rather take my chances on the Ottawa River Car Path than on Carling, any day.



The former city of Ottawa had 300+ kilopersons living in it at the time of amalgamation 16 years ago.

And the same argument obtains for those who want to move the Civic further out to the burbs: aren't those people closer to the Queensway-Carleton campus?
The catchment of those Toronto hospitals (at least for emergency purposes) isn't the entire city of Toronto, it is a midway point between those hospitals and the next ring of hospitals (Toronto Western, Toronto East General, Sunnybrook, St Josephs), which puts that University/College cluster of hospitals pretty close to the centre of the catchment.

The boundaries of the former city of ottawa went as far south as the airport and almost as far west as bayshore and as far east as blair. If you're counting those 50s and 60s and 70s suburbs as "non-suburban" then it is certainly not true that most "non-suburbanites" will be closer to a hospital. What the move will do is push neighbourhoods like the Glebe, Lowertown and the south end of centretown out of the civic's catchment and into the General's, and nieghbourhoods west of woodroofe out of the civic's catchment and into the Queenway Carleton's.
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  #446  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:54 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is online now
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Originally Posted by zzptichka View Post
NCC does not.
Hospital wants free land and that's what NCC has to offer. Hospital can reject it all together, buy properties around current site and expand however they like.
That may yet be the outcome.
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  #447  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 7:58 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Southpaw78 View Post
OK thanks!! I hadn't seen that anywhere so appreciate your sharing that info.

What's the catch though (if any) with NCC giving free land?
The catch is that the NCC risks the Ottawa Hospital learning and perfecting art of being both beggars and choosers simultaneously, thus making them insufferable for the foreseeable future.

Already, the Ottawa Hospital seems to be taking the news of this free land to mean that they can get even more aggressive in their bargaining position. The Ottawa Hospital has already publicly raised concerns that they might have to pay for the levelling of the buildings on the newly offered free prime real estate (the horrors!) so they're clearly setting themselves up now for an ask whereby the feds not only give them the land for free but also that the federal treasury pay to clear it from nuisance buildings for them.

Also, if The Ottawa Hospital complains loud enough about having to relocate to Tunney's Pasture, the Ottawa Hospital also gets a bit of a secondary bargain in that the NCC won't want to risk making the conflict worse by imposing any conditions on the Hospital's ridiculous so-called "needs". For example, the hospital says it absolutely NEEDS to have 20 acres of surface parking. Anybody with two braincells to rub together can figure out that no downtown hospital needs 20 acres of surface parking but the NCC probably won't push that issue or force the Ottawa Hospital to reconsider because they'd risk a public relations disaster in doing so.
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  #448  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 8:45 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Anybody with two braincells to rub together can figure out that no downtown hospital needs 20 acres of surface parking but the NCC probably won't push that issue or force the Ottawa Hospital to reconsider because they'd risk a public relations disaster in doing so.
Is McKenna the minister for the NCC? If so... watch for a push.
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  #449  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 8:46 PM
Mikeed Mikeed is offline
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Other observations for a 20 year planning horizon re: New Civic Campus at Tunney's:

Ottawa River Parkway

I think the idea of cutting the Ottawa River Parkway down to 2 lanes is an idea that should be dropped, and with all the development happening along the waterfront it is an idea that sooner or later will die.

The future of the parkway is having the road "tighten" and get pulled back from the waterfront and possibly end up at segments behind a berm, tree line shielding it from view.

I also think the possibility of connecting the Parkway- at least in the Westbound direction- to the 417 is one that should be considered and that will be possible. I also think rush hour tolls should be considered, but that's for another time.

Fisher Park School / Community Centre

Considering this school was originally built in 1949, and sat empty between 1987-1994, I think well within a 20 year planning horizon (or now) this school could be demolished and we could see highway ramps installed at Holland. They could build a new, modern school (probably smaller as class sizes are down) on the ball diamond, and then tear down the old school and move the yard to the other side.

Or even move it to off island park next to Hampton park.
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  #450  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 9:16 PM
passwordisnt123 passwordisnt123 is offline
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Is McKenna the minister for the NCC? If so... watch for a push.
No. Joly's the minister responsible for the NCC. McKenna's our senior minister in Ottawa though so she definitely has a say but it wasn't her decision to make.
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  #451  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 9:30 PM
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Other observations for a 20 year planning horizon re: New Civic Campus at Tunney's:

Ottawa River Parkway

I think the idea of cutting the Ottawa River Parkway down to 2 lanes is an idea that should be dropped, and with all the development happening along the waterfront it is an idea that sooner or later will die.

The future of the parkway is having the road "tighten" and get pulled back from the waterfront and possibly end up at segments behind a berm, tree line shielding it from view.

I also think the possibility of connecting the Parkway- at least in the Westbound direction- to the 417 is one that should be considered and that will be possible. I also think rush hour tolls should be considered, but that's for another time.

Fisher Park School / Community Centre

Considering this school was originally built in 1949, and sat empty between 1987-1994, I think well within a 20 year planning horizon (or now) this school could be demolished and we could see highway ramps installed at Holland. They could build a new, modern school (probably smaller as class sizes are down) on the ball diamond, and then tear down the old school and move the yard to the other side.

Or even move it to off island park next to Hampton park.
Except Fisher Park has returned to being a popular school as of 20 years ago (I attended it for middle school, and I had to interview to get in despite living nearby). They offer a good French-immersion program, English program, and alternative school, as well as I believe some smaller programs. Of all the elementary schools in the area (Elmdale, Hilson, Devonshire, Connaught), none of them offer grades 7 and 8, and don't have the space to offer them. Fisher Park fills the gap by only offering those grades. With enrollment up at these schools, it's not likely that Fisher will ever be demolished due to being under-capacity. As well, let's not forget the projected amount of development this area is anticipating. We'll might soon need to consider building new schools if in 20 years everything has been developed.

Furthermore, it would be a ludicrous idea to not just demolish a school, but to demolish anything to widen a highway and build more off-ramps. We did this regularly in the 1960s and it ruined cities and neighbourhoods, and offered no actual benefits. To continue to make the same mistake and turn Holland Avenue into a freeway on/off-ramp would be an irreparable mistake when we know much better. Parkdale has already been ruined; there's no sense doing the same to Holland just because on paper it sounds better.

If anything, the Queensway should be demolished, as other, more progressive (better) cities are starting to do. Public transportation is being improved (and is already much better north of the Queensway than south), there are more opportunities for development and currently more people who live north of the Queensway that realistically we don't need to be too considered about traffic. But trying to fix traffic by widening roads never works (famous simile: "Widening roads to prevent congestion is like a fat man loosening his belt to prevent obesity.")
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  #452  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 9:37 PM
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Population of Central Ottawa.

Central: 12,026
Inner Area: 89,605
Ottawa West: 44,598

In what is considered Downtown, that's 146,229 people. One and a half times the population of our big three suburbs, and on a much smaller land mass.

Add Merivale, where the current Civic is situated, we're up to 223,760.

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/get-know-y...seholds-occupied-dwellings-estimates-sub

And Jobs.

Central: 106,741
Inner: 47,925
Ottawa West:32,373

Downtown total - 187,039

Merivale: 65,739

With current Civic Sub-Area: 242,778

http://ottawa.ca/en/city-hall/get-know-y...economic-profile/urban-sub-area-profiles

With close to a quarter of the population and nearly half the jobs, all crammed onto 3% of the City's land mass, Downtown requires its own hospital.
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  #453  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 10:23 PM
Mikeed Mikeed is offline
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Except Fisher Park has returned to being a popular school as of 20 years ago. They offer a good French-immersion program, English program, and alternative school, as well as I believe some smaller programs. Of all the elementary schools in the area (Elmdale, Hilson, Devonshire, Connaught), none of them offer grades 7 and 8, and don't have the space to offer them. Fisher Park fills the gap by only offering those grades. With enrollment up at these schools, it's not likely that Fisher will ever be demolished due to being under-capacity. As well, let's not forget the projected amount of development this area is anticipating. We'll might soon need to consider building new schools if in 20 years everything has been developed.


If anything, the Queensway should be demolished
The suggesting that the Queensway should be demolished is a suggestion outside the scope of reality. I prefer to deal with realities.

The reality is it will probably take years to propose a new school, but that school is based on being 80 years old and, as you said, the area is growing and the requirement for a modern school infrastructure that can support these niche programs is pressing.

An 80 year old school is pushing the limits of what the Ministry likes to see and based on the strengths the school has an increase in capacity would add a lot to the Board at this location.

It is entirely reasonable that and ramps could be built at that location while modernizing the school and adding a new wing. I just like to see the possible among the realities of like.

Improved school, improved road access/transit access, hospital access. Don't be afraid of change. In fact moving the main entrance / new wing fronting Harmer Ave. would drastically increase safety at the site.

This is why we have 20 year plans.

But again, the need for 417 access to vastly over stated.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 10:30 PM
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As a straight line, Tunney's is maybe 200m closer to downtown than the current location. Seems pretty arbitrary to call one location "downtown" and another location not.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 10:45 PM
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As a straight line, Tunney's is maybe 200m closer to downtown than the current location. Seems pretty arbitrary to call one location "downtown" and another location not.
Yes, but Tunney's is on the main axis of Ottawa proper- which is East/West. For Lowertown, Vanier this represents significantly better road connections to the hosptial. Consider major source of trauma patients through out the year is the Byward Market, which sees significant improvements to the road access.

Consider all the growth areas of the urban core:
- the west core (lyon)
- the flats
- bayview
- the core
- around the byward market and rideau
- westboro

The future of Scott Street is a four lane avenue to Churchill in the west, which provides fast connection to the urban areas in the city. On the east side Slater provides rapid connections to the Byward Market/Sandy Hill and Montreal Road.

When it comes to where people actually live, the 417 is over stated in it's importance.

And the Queensway Carleton will remain the logical location for west of Woodroffe and Barrhaven. The Civic needs to move away from the catchment area of the QCH and towards the Byward Market, Vanier and Sandy Hill. And the other growth areas.

As someone who lived 4 years around Algonquin I went to the QCH as my main hospital.

Spend a lot of time in Google Earth, I don't know, the opportunities seem clear to me.
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Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanarchit View Post
Except Fisher Park has returned to being a popular school as of 20 years ago (I attended it for middle school, and I had to interview to get in despite living nearby). They offer a good French-immersion program, English program, and alternative school, as well as I believe some smaller programs. Of all the elementary schools in the area (Elmdale, Hilson, Devonshire, Connaught), none of them offer grades 7 and 8, and don't have the space to offer them. Fisher Park fills the gap by only offering those grades. With enrollment up at these schools, it's not likely that Fisher will ever be demolished due to being under-capacity. As well, let's not forget the projected amount of development this area is anticipating. We'll might soon need to consider building new schools if in 20 years everything has been developed.
As a side note.. am I the only one sickened by how the OCDSB runs its schools like charter schools? Seriously, interviews, special programs... whatever happened to school zones and going to the school assigned to your neighbourhood?
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  #457  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2016, 12:42 AM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Originally Posted by Mikeed View Post
The suggesting that the Queensway should be demolished is a suggestion outside the scope of reality. I prefer to deal with realities.
It's very well within the scope of reality, as many other cities have realised. Unfortunately, our political leaders aren't progressive/ forward-thinkers and don't have much in the way of urban studies education to understand the impact the Queensway has had on the city and how it limits its potential. San Francisco used to think freeways were necessary to move their city, and when the earthquake happened the soon realised how unnecessary and burdensome it actually was that they chose not to replace it. Seoul removed their freeway over the Cheonggyecheon, and both cities having done this boosted the economies of the surrounding areas and made highly desirable locales.

People will only continue moving out of the city and driving everywhere if we decide that something that has only caused problems for Ottawa should not only stay, but be added to to create more problems. As someone who has lived their entire lives blocks from it in the urban parts of Ottawa, I can only ever live the reality of what the Queensway has done and continues to do.

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The reality is it will probably take years to propose a new school, but that school is based on being 80 years old and, as you said, the area is growing and the requirement for a modern school infrastructure that can support these niche programs is pressing.

An 80 year old school is pushing the limits of what the Ministry likes to see and based on the strengths the school has an increase in capacity would add a lot to the Board at this location.
That's assuming that the school is in poor condition. Aside from a bit of efflorescence, the school is in decent shape considering its age and renovations shouldn't be too bad. Broadview was in a different condition because, to contradict your second paragraph, the schoolboards don't care about their urban schools so much and has let them crumble - apparently, the Ministry didn't care too much until it was too late for Broadview. When I last attended Fisher 13 years ago it had more than enough room to grow into (there were hallways and wings that we weren't allowed to use as they belonged to something else).

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It is entirely reasonable that and ramps could be built at that location while modernizing the school and adding a new wing. I just like to see the possible among the realities of like.

Improved school, improved road access/transit access, hospital access. Don't be afraid of change. In fact moving the main entrance / new wing fronting Harmer Ave. would drastically increase safety at the site.

This is why we have 20 year plans.

But again, the need for 417 access to vastly over stated.
It's still silly to think that it would be a good idea to demolish a perfectly good school to build a Queensway ramp, and then to spend more money reducing the greenspace the school has to build a new one. It's not just that it's ridiculous and expensive, but it's a waste of resources for something that has no benefits.

The infrastructure to serve the hospital, whether at Carling or Tunney's Pasture already exists - and as I've stated, there's better transit/ mobility options north of the Queensway than south that will probably assuage some concerns with regards to traffic, etc.

Why do you think the front needs to be moved to Harmer to make it safer? Since when is the area unsafe that it would be best to move it elsewhere?

To comment on the bolded: I'm not afraid of change, I'm concerned about regressive measures that mascarade as improvements that are proven to be disastrous.

Last edited by Urbanarchit; Nov 29, 2016 at 1:38 AM.
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  #458  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2016, 12:45 AM
Urbanarchit Urbanarchit is offline
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Originally Posted by 1overcosc View Post
As a side note.. am I the only one sickened by how the OCDSB runs its schools like charter schools? Seriously, interviews, special programs... whatever happened to school zones and going to the school assigned to your neighbourhood?
In their defense, I got in automatically because of my proximity. I was entering into their French immersion program and they wanted to ensure I was up-to-snuff. My French immersion program started at grade 4, whereas students attending it from Elmdale at the time started French immersion in Kindergarten (it's not only French immersion, I believe). Summit Alternative had it's benefits, as it permitted more attention to students that learn differently than the typical academic methods.

But they did permit a lot of students from around Ottawa to attend. Some lived near Hillcrest High School and others past Baseline and Fisher or Lincoln Fields. Most of us were local, though.
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  #459  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2016, 2:08 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by passwordisnt123 View Post
The catch is that the NCC risks the Ottawa Hospital learning and perfecting art of being both beggars and choosers simultaneously, thus making them insufferable for the foreseeable future.

Already, the Ottawa Hospital seems to be taking the news of this free land to mean that they can get even more aggressive in their bargaining position. The Ottawa Hospital has already publicly raised concerns that they might have to pay for the levelling of the buildings on the newly offered free prime real estate (the horrors!) so they're clearly setting themselves up now for an ask whereby the feds not only give them the land for free but also that the federal treasury pay to clear it from nuisance buildings for them.

Also, if The Ottawa Hospital complains loud enough about having to relocate to Tunney's Pasture, the Ottawa Hospital also gets a bit of a secondary bargain in that the NCC won't want to risk making the conflict worse by imposing any conditions on the Hospital's ridiculous so-called "needs". For example, the hospital says it absolutely NEEDS to have 20 acres of surface parking. Anybody with two braincells to rub together can figure out that no downtown hospital needs 20 acres of surface parking but the NCC probably won't push that issue or force the Ottawa Hospital to reconsider because they'd risk a public relations disaster in doing so.
When you get free land, obviously the cost of surface parking is very cheap. Normally the cost of surface parking is much more because of the value of the land. The expectation of free land is distorting the whole debate on surface parking.
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Old Posted Nov 29, 2016, 2:21 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
Tunney's is at the Northern edge of the city. If Ontario and Quebec had an integrated healthcare system it would be a central location, but it does seem odd to put a hospital at the edge of its catchment area.

Tunney's is also only about 500m closer to downtown than the current civic (or the proposed farm location).
Funny, I presented this same argument about the planned western routing of the Confederation Line.

Well, they chose this northern edge route, so why not locate the hospital along this same route especially considering that any plans for rapid transit along Carling have been deferred and even then, will it every really be rapid transit?

The only reasons for the desired CEF site is the low cost of building on a green field site and because of the challenges of relocating the hospital. It will be so simple to just expand across the road onto a National Historic Site. But we cannot always pander to those desires, otherwise every green space property will be threatened with being paved over for every conceivable public project. And I am thinking of roads, and that is indeed part of the proposal along with surface parking lots.

However, as others have suggested, beggars should not also be choosers.
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