New Ottawa Civic Hospital [930 Carling Ave + 520 Preston St] | U/C

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I think we can thank McKenna for this decision. She pushed hard for the Tunney's site.

Good to know that our local cabinet minister is a good champion for the city.

So we've replaced one highly-politicized decision by the local party power broker with a different highly-politicized decision by the local party power broker. What progress. They could scrap the board altogether and just make the NCC part of the government.

[1overcosc]

^ Hey, at least these ones conducted a proper evaluation of all sites and went with what's best for the city instead of what Baird did, which was just blindly accept whatever the hospital asked, without even consulting the department whose land was being handed over.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

^ Hey, at least these ones conducted a proper evaluation of all sites and went with what's best for the city instead of what Baird did, which was just blindly accept whatever the hospital asked, without even consulting the department whose land was being handed over.

They did an "evaluation" under Baird too. In both cases the criteria were weighted to produce the result the result the local minister wanted. That's fine, that is how most government decisions work, but it seems like a waste of money and time to have the extra cost of running the ncc as a crown corporation if they are just a rubber stamp for the local political boss.

[rocketphish]

Heart Institute expansion done in 2020, just in time for Civic move. Are we nuts?

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 27, 2016 | Last Updated: November 27, 2016 4:47 PM EST



Siting the new Civic campus of the Ottawa Hospital is the ultimate town-versus-Crown debate.

If “debate” is even the right word. The deciding meeting of the National Capital Commission last week was a thing to behold. It took roughly 75 minutes for an unelected body of 14 people — mostly out-of-towners, some totally disengaged, none a health expert — to decide where to put a $2-billion hospital that scarcely any of them will ever use, ever have to pay for, and never have to design or build.

But a million people, for 100 years, live with the consequences. There, there, Ottawa, we know what’s good for you. Now pipe down or off with your heads. Infuriating.

The local Liberal godmother, Catherine (Crown) McKenna, called it “great news,” just as past (Town) mayors named Durrell and Holzman were pretty much having kittens. The townies are correct, of course — we usually are. Because we live here. We get sick here. We die here.

McKenna has pointed to the open and transparent process. True. It was also the wrong process, which arrived at the wrong decision. Open? Transparent? What hollow reassurance.

There were so, so many major issues not addressed at the board meeting. But consider one: the Heart Institute.

A curious thing happened just before the vote. Board member Michael Poliwoda is a vice-president at the University of Ottawa Heart Institute Foundation, the cardiac facility’s fundraising arm. He had declared a conflict in the Civic matter, recusing himself from voting, but he decided to speak anyway.

“A point of clarification,” he told the board, “the Heart Institute is not part of, nor a division of, The Ottawa Hospital. The Heart Institute is a separate legal entity.”

Many people, including fellow member Brian Coburn, have wondered about the Institute’s fate when the Civic decamps. So ears perked up.

“It is not the hospital’s call whether the Heart Institute moves with the hospital. It is the ministry’s call.”

Oh, the muddy, muddy waters.

The next day, this statement: “The University of Ottawa Heart Institute acknowledges the National Capital Commission (NCC) decision to recommend Tunney’s Pasture as the future site for the new Civic campus of The Ottawa Hospital. As The Ottawa Hospital moves towards the next steps, the Heart Institute will work closely in collaboration with the Hospital, and the Government of Ontario, to ensure continued world-class cardiac care.”

Lukewarm response? No, stone cold.

To backtrack, here is why the Heart Institute is so pivotal: It’s in the middle of a major expansion, costing roughly $200 million, of which $55 million has been locally raised. That’s $55 million in (town) sweat equity, people who get their names on buildings.

Now the timelines. The expansion, which totals 145,000 square feet, broke ground in January 2015. It will not be completed before February 2020. Yes, 2020.

The Civic, meanwhile, is hoping to have a shovel in the ground in five years, though it might be 10. Obvious question: Have we completely lost our minds? Are we seriously going to finish a $200-million addition to our Cadillac health facility, then start planning to replace it a year or two later? This is madness.

Yet, when the NCC was asked about this, there was stunned silence, as in, “How would we know?”

None of us needs a reminder about the pressure on health care budgets or the billions the system eats every year. Now we add colossal waste to the pile?

The Ottawa Hospital, to be frank, needs to own this, too. It insisted on 50 mostly-open acres for the Civic, then, after the botched announcement on the Central Experimental Farm, threw itself on the mercy of the feds, who own half the town but have changing political masters.

So the recipe that called for cake gave us guacamole. The hospital should say thanks but no thanks to the Tunney’s offer and hit the reset button, with an eye on protecting the Heart Institute investment. It’s not their money. It’s ours.

And, slightly off topic, but a note on the value/overvalue of public transit to the new site and the resultant effect on parking. The hospital’s wish list is for 3,600 parking spots. If a major transit hub is nearby, using City of Ottawa zoning modelling, that figure is only reduced to 3,100, or 3.5 fewer acres. So transit, in other words, is no magic shrinking wand.

One is reminded of the bad joke: Our top surgeons did their best work, the operation was a roaring success, but the patient’s dead. Honestly, this thing is a mess right now.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or email [email protected].
twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...-just-in-time-for-civic-move-are-we-nuts

[zzptichka]

Siting the new Civic campus of the Ottawa Hospital is the ultimate town-versus-Crown debate.

If “debate” is even the right word. The deciding meeting of the National Capital Commission last week was a thing to behold. It took roughly 75 minutes for an unelected body of 14 people — mostly out-of-towners, some totally disengaged, none a health expert — to decide where to put a $2-billion hospital that scarcely any of them will ever use, ever have to pay for, and never have to design or build.

Oh God, Egan is an idiot. So much wrong in this paragraph alone.
The best thing he can do for the city is take his voluntary buyout package and leave already.

[little italian]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

So much wrong in this paragraph alone.

Such as? I watched the NCC discussion, and this seemed like an accurate summary. There was lots of self congratulating going on, some discussion of "survey analytics", and a little debate was over when it is appropriate to abstain from a vote. The only people who brought actual content, questions, historical context or concrete considerations to the table were the dissenters.

I'm not saying that the decision was necessarily bad. I'm just saying that the board rubber stamped this decision.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by little italian

Such as? I watched the NCC discussion, and this seemed like an accurate summary. There was lots of self congratulating going on, some discussion of "survey analytics", and a little debate was over when it is appropriate to abstain from a vote. The only people who brought actual content, questions, historical context or concrete considerations to the table were the dissenters.

I'm not saying that the decision was necessarily bad. I'm just saying that the board rubber stamped this decision.

The site was proposed by NCC staff after consultations with communities, experts, urban planners, the City, Federal government, etc. Board of Directors (14 unelected people) only approve it.

What Egan is doing here is twisting facts. Those who came up with the Tunney's location know the city and studied the options very well.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by little italian

I'm just saying that the board rubber stamped this decision.

Don't be shocked.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Why the Ottawa Hospital should reject the Tunney's site

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 24, 2016 | Last Updated: November 24, 2016 7:11 PM EST

[...]

This is a hospital to serve the city for 100 years. The city is growing west, east and very much south. So the recommendation from the NCC committee is to move the Civic campus three kilometres north, so far north it’s almost in the Ottawa River? It’s moving in the wrong general direction — away from its future patients.

To contact Kelly Egan, please call 613-726-5896 or email [email protected].
Twitter.com/kellyegancolumn

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...-hospital-should-reject-the-tunneys-site

Holy crap that may be the dumbest paragraph Kelly Egan has written in some time and that's really saying something.

So the downtown hospital doesn't serve the suburbs? Wow, that's a real astute revelation there, Kelly. Next thing you know, Kelly's going to be talking about how disability benefits don't help people who don't have disabilities and how investments in Alberta don't help those people in PEI.

Somebody needs to tell Egan that the Civic isn't the only hospital in town. There are other hospitals serving the suburbs but the Civic IS the only hospital in downtown.

Using the argument that the suburbs are growing therefore we should strip the downtown of vital much-needed healthcare services is not only dumb and irresponsible, it actually contributes to making the problem worse.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Holy crap that may be the dumbest paragraph Kelly Egan has written in some time and that's really saying something.

So the downtown hospital doesn't serve the suburbs? Wow, that's a real astute revelation there, Kelly. Next thing you know, Kelly's going to be talking about how disability benefits don't help people who don't have disabilities and how investments in Alberta don't help those people in PEI.

Somebody needs to tell Egan that the Civic isn't the only hospital in town. There are other hospitals serving the suburbs but the Civic IS the only hospital in downtown.

Using the argument that the suburbs are growing therefore we should strip the downtown of vital much-needed healthcare services is not only dumb and irresponsible, it actually contributes to making the problem worse.

Tunney's is at the Northern edge of the city. If Ontario and Quebec had an integrated healthcare system it would be a central location, but it does seem odd to put a hospital at the edge of its catchment area.

Tunney's is also only about 500m closer to downtown than the current civic (or the proposed farm location).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Using the argument that the suburbs are growing therefore we should strip the downtown of vital much-needed healthcare services is not only dumb and irresponsible, it actually contributes to making the problem worse.

Yet another example in my stack of Holy Sweet Lord Ottawa Leaders And Opinion Makers Won't Be Happy Until Ottawa Sprawls Between Peterborough And L'Orignal And Downtown Is A Smoking Crater With Lots Of Parking.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Tunney's is at the Northern edge of the city.

And downtown hospitals in Toronto and Montreal are near the "southern edge" of those respective cities. Point being what?

Tunney's is also only about 500m closer to downtown than the current civic (or the proposed farm location).

Did you miss a leading 1? By my measure, it's about 1500m between the closest part of the existing Civic and the proposed Tunney's site.

Either way: much better for the hundreds of thousands of non-suburbanites whose closest hospital will be even more centrally-located than the current site.

[McC]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Why the Ottawa Hospital should reject the Tunney's site

Kelly Egan, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: November 24, 2016 | Last Updated: November 24, 2016 7:11 PM EST

The editors should have noted in the first line that Egan and his family live just a few blocks away.

[Southpaw78]

I understand if this seems like an odd or ignorant question, but why does the NCC have a say in where a hospital goes? It is because there is interest in the provincial government building only on NCC lands?

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by Southpaw78

I understand if this seems like an odd or ignorant question, but why does the NCC have a say in where a hospital goes? It is because there is interest in the provincial government building only on NCC lands?

NCC does not.
Hospital wants free land and that's what NCC has to offer. Hospital can reject it all together, buy properties around current site and expand however they like.

[J.OT13]

Yes, a lot of the people protesting the decision seem to have forgotten that hundreds of thousands live and/or work downtown. That more people live and/or work in central Ottawa than the three big suburbs combined.

Like it or not, the Civic also serves Gatineau to a certain extent.

I've even seen a few people (letters to the editor) suggesting sites like Riverside or off the 416, where we already have hospital(s).

That's the problem with the suburban-centric world we live in. Thankfully, though the NCC does not have all the facts or expertise in such matters as health-care, they do realize the importance of a. serving the central core and b. having a good distribution of health-care facilities in the city.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by McC

The editors should have noted in the first line that Egan and his family live just a few blocks away.

Oh so we have some typical NIMBYism going on here. Makes sense now.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And downtown hospitals in Toronto and Montreal are near the "southern edge" of those respective cities. Point being what?



Did you miss a leading 1? By my measure, it's about 1500m between the closest part of the existing Civic and the proposed Tunney's site.

Either way: much better for the hundreds of thousands of non-suburbanites whose closest hospital will be even more centrally-located than the current site.

You're referring to the cluster of hospitals around College and University? Those are 3 km from the southern edge of the city (and fairly centrally located within the catchment).

My point being that if you're in the emergency services business (and minimizing travel times save lives) there are advantages to being closer to the centre of your catchment area.

Where are there hundreds of thousands of non-suburbanites in the Ottawa area? How many of these non-suburbanites are closer to the General or Montfort than to Tunney's (and won't be affected anyway)?

[McC]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Oh so we have some typical NIMBYism going on here. Makes sense now.

Not necessarily, I don't like to impugn (or guess at) motives in a case like this ,where reasonable people can disagree about where and how to select sites for a major institution like this. But there is that possibility, and it should be acknowledged explicitly.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

You're referring to the cluster of hospitals around College and University? Those are 3 km from the southern edge of the city (and fairly centrally located within the catchment).

They are 2 km from the Toronto waterfront, just a few pixels away from the word "Downtown" on the Google map of Toronto, and 15 km from the northern boundary of Toronto with the first ring of 905 suburbs.

So, yes, they are "fairly centrally located within the catchment", which is something we need to aim for in Ottawa. The current Civic is central-ish, but could be central-er.

My point being that if you're in the emergency services business (and minimizing travel times save lives) there are advantages to being closer to the centre of your catchment area.

Indeed, which is why i like the Tunney's site, myself. Also, if I ever (knock wood) have to be transported as a casualty to the Civic, I'd rather take my chances on the Ottawa River Car Path than on Carling, any day.

Where are there hundreds of thousands of non-suburbanites in the Ottawa area? How many of these non-suburbanites are closer to the General or Montfort than to Tunney's (and won't be affected anyway)?

The former city of Ottawa had 300+ kilopersons living in it at the time of amalgamation 16 years ago.

And the same argument obtains for those who want to move the Civic further out to the burbs: aren't those people closer to the Queensway-Carleton campus?