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View Poll Results: Based on options for Broadway Corridor Study, what is your preferred choice?
BRT: Commercial to UBC 25 6.16%
LRT A: Commercial to UBC OR Commercial via VCC to UBC 31 7.64%
LRT B: Main St. to UBC AND Commercial to UBC 18 4.43%
RRT: Commercial to UBC OR VCC to UBC 283 69.70%
COMBO: RRT to Arbutus/LRT to Main St via Arbutus 39 9.61%
BUS: Enhanced Bus Service for all buses to UBC 10 2.46%
Voters: 406. You may not vote on this poll

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  #7361  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:15 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
There seems to be an odd thing with this board where people think the Skytrain's high frequency is unique - it isn't. It's not a choice of long platforms or high frequency, there are many systems that have both.
You need automation to run high frequencies economically, but you're right that you can have high frequencies with long trains.

However the need for long trains doesn't come until you're already running trains at the maximum possible frequency. If you have 100 married pairs of cars, it makes more sense to run 100 2-car trains at high frequency than 50 4-car trains at only half the frequency. The capacity of the line is the same in both cases, but average wait times are half with the shorter trains.

It only makes sense to run longer trains when demand has increased to the point that your system is saturated with short trains. Therefore the benefits of the long platforms won't be realized until many years after they're built.
     
     
  #7362  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:16 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
I'm curious to know which systems (long platforms/high frequency) match or come close to Skytrain?
Hong Kong MTR is one... not quite as frequent as SkyTrain before though (1.9min vs 1.8min)..
     
     
  #7363  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:18 AM
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Especially in cities of similar size as Vancouver. Massive cities such as Tokyo, New York, London, etc... don't count in this context. Those are the exceptions where long platforms and high frequencies are both needed. For small and mid sized cities 80 to 100 meters are more than enough.

I have yet to ride another system with 90 second to 2 minute frequencies in a city where the metro population is under 10 million.

By the time Vancouver is big enough to require long platforms and frequent trains, skytrain will be so old that it will already be nearing the end of its life and in need of a complete rebuild / major renovation / replacement.
     
     
  #7364  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:19 AM
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
Hong Kong MTR is one... not quite as frequent as SkyTrain before though (1.9min vs 1.8min)..
I suppose there are more than a few in East Asia.
     
     
  #7365  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:20 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
I'm curious to know which systems (long platforms/high frequency) match or come close to Skytrain?
There are indeed systems that do both, and that's because they're moving many more people than the skytrain.

The whole point of the skytrain arrangement is to make a transit system that can support big-league metro service quality without big-league metro ridership or big-league metro capital costs
     
     
  #7366  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:28 AM
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
Hong Kong MTR is one... not quite as frequent as SkyTrain before though (1.9min vs 1.8min)..
What are the non peak hour frequencies? One of Skytrains strengths.
     
     
  #7367  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:28 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
I'm curious to know which systems (long platforms/high frequency) match or come close to Skytrain?
The one mainly on my mind is London, which has managed 2-2.5 minute frequencies for a long time even on the lines without automation. I believe the reason they don't go much higher is for system redundancy and station capacity rather than any technical limitation. Crossrail is being built for 240m platforms up to 30tph (and could probably go higher if they wanted to) and I don't think that's even going to be automated.

Even Calgary gets close to 2 minute frequencies at peak hours downtown, with much crappier technology than Skytrain.
     
     
  #7368  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:30 AM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
I suppose there are more than a few in East Asia.
2min frequency is common, but very few system actually go below 2min frequency... Even fewer for long train and long platform
     
     
  #7369  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:34 AM
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Again, you are talking about London, urban population 10 million, Metro population nearing 14 million.

Mega cities are a completely different ball game. As said before, building such long platforms in cities the size of Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, etc... now is a waste. by the time such cities become big enough to require such long platforms, their existing metro lines will be so old that they will need a major re-build anyways.
     
     
  #7370  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 4:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Especially in cities of similar size as Vancouver. Massive cities such as Tokyo, New York, London, etc... don't count in this context. Those are the exceptions where long platforms and high frequencies are both needed. For small and mid sized cities 80 to 100 meters are more than enough.

I have yet to ride another system with 90 second to 2 minute frequencies in a city where the metro population is under 10 million.

By the time Vancouver is big enough to require long platforms and frequent trains, skytrain will be so old that it will already be nearing the end of its life and in need of a complete rebuild / major renovation / replacement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Again, you are talking about London, urban population 10 million, Metro population nearing 14 million.

Mega cities are a completely different ball game. As said before, building such long platforms in cities the size of Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, etc... now is a waste. by the time such cities become big enough to require such long platforms, their existing metro lines will be so old that they will need a major re-build anyways.
Toronto's population is 2.5 million. Their subway averages 24,000 pph.

Skytrain headway and size would be overwhelmed within the first hour of rush hour.
     
     
  #7371  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 5:00 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Toronto's population is 2.5 million. Their subway averages 24,000 pph.

Skytrain headway and size would be overwhelmed within the first hour of rush hour.
SkyTrain would be just fine taking 24000 pphpd per hour even without adding 5th car... just need to buy more trains, get rid of MkI, propulsion power upgrade, and capacity improvements at key stations (ie. Burrard)

Even with the reduced frequency now (1.8min to 2.2min), the capacity is about 16000pphpd.
     
     
  #7372  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 5:25 AM
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It's mentioned in the early proposals that when open in 1985 it would be able to carry 10000 per hour initially with the possibility of up to 30000 in the future. 24000 is on the high side but still within that number.
     
     
  #7373  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 5:30 AM
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Originally Posted by nname View Post
SkyTrain would be just fine taking 24000 pphpd per hour even without adding 5th car... just need to buy more trains, get rid of MkI, propulsion power upgrade, and capacity improvements at key stations (ie. Burrard)

Even with the reduced frequency now (1.8min to 2.2min), the capacity is about 16000pphpd.
You actually proved my point.
The Subway did that with the old cars. The new cars will add ATC, which Skytrain already is using.
You would need more cars and more trains. The subway have enough to run at capacity.

When Toronto builds it's DRL They will build it for a capacity over 30,000 pph, and it will meet that within 5 years after it were to open.

Even though the service area of the subway has about 2.5 million residences, if you take in all of the GTA and the Golden Horseshoe you have about 8.7 million.

The cities that the Skytrain runs threw is about 1.8 Million. If you take the area that is connected to it by bus/WCE/Seabus is about 2.6 million.

The Skytrain will be the longest RT in the country when the Evergreen Extension opens next week.

Montreal actually is the one with the highest ridership.

When the current construction projects are done, Montreal's will be the shortest at 70 km. The Skytrain will be at 79 km, and Toronto will be at 96 km. If you include the Streetcars, The Toronto system will be about 180 km.

The reality is Vancouver has a great system for it's size. However, drop the same length and number of cars in Montreal or Toronto and it could never keep up.
     
     
  #7374  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 6:17 AM
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Originally Posted by MIPS View Post
It's mentioned in the early proposals that when open in 1985 it would be able to carry 10000 per hour initially with the possibility of up to 30000 in the future. 24000 is on the high side but still within that number.
I believe the original design requirement is to achieve an ultimate capacity of 25,000. And it is to be done by 76m 6-cars MkIs running every 75s

86 passengers/car * 6 cars * 48 trains/hour = 24768 passengers/hour

Its a stretch, but its barely doable...

But then, the MkIIs come... They figure the 25,000 requirement is now easily attainable with 69m 4-cars MkII, and may even achieve higher if they go with 86m 5-car trains

130 passengers/car * 4 cars * 48 trains/hour = 24960 passengers/hour
130 passengers/car * 5 cars * 48 trains/hour = 31200 passengers/hour

Now with MkIIIs, the capacity can be even higher... The constraint is just that some busier station cannot yet handle the passengers, the propulsion system now can only support about ~20000pphpd, and some optimization is required for ATC software as it currently can only dispatch trains 77s apart.
     
     
  #7375  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 9:14 AM
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See I knew I would learn a couple of new things if I just let the discussion happen and come back to this thread like a few days later after some announcements were made in the press .

Just because I am posting this on the heels of other people comparing our proposed project to Montreal's REM transit project I will start with that... Montreal's proposed REM project is definitely an exciting one! Especially considering that they will be using similar, if not, identical technology to our Skytrain system. BUT if you really analyze the proposed project, you can see that a significant portion of that network will be at ground-level but grade-separated. Also, you will notice that the portions of it that are underground, are not going through major neighbourhoods (to my knowledge) like the Broadway corridor AND that the underground portions aren't proposed to go long distances. I illustrate these points to say that because the Montreal REM system is mostly at ground level and/or elevated that it will be cheaper and easier to construct than our major underground system that we want down Broadway. I would compare the beginning of their REM system to the beginning of our Skytrain system; we started off the Expo line similarly by using formerly used freight-train tunnels and making it elevated to cut costs. Now I do think that having the REM system operating by 2020 is unrealistic at this point for Montreal but that's another post .

It's definitely not fair to compare Vancouver's transit system to the mega-metropolises like London or New York. But what we can do is learn from them on how they approached construction for underground lines under major neighbourhoods. Because I am sure that one of these larger cities has constructed a major underground line through a densely populated neighbourhood. In fact, I think that centuries ago, London did construct one of its many lines (underground) that went through a major neighbourhood. And what they did was construct a temporary elevated road for vehicles while work was done underground. Someone may correct me if I am wrong here but I am 100% confident that there were projects similar to the Broadway extension that were considered successful. Bottom-line: We are not doing something unique in this world with this proposal.

The Broadway corridor itself is a major east-west connecting road. No matter what, there is going to be disruption on that street whether the extension is elevated or underground. Ideally I would like to see this extension done right the first time, and done right to UBC. I imagine that the construction will be an incredible disruption to the Broadway neighbourhood and as opposed to disrupting life multiple times, I say that we should just bite the bullet and get it over with. Because God knows, there is more than enough demand for Skytrain service all the way to UBC today; and who knows what that demand will be like in 5-10 years?

And this brings me onto my next point; life will still go on before, during, and after construction. Someone else pointed this out before but I would like to repeat that we won't know what demands Vancouver will face in the next 10 years or what the challenges will be. I can guarantee, however, the longer we wait the more expensive this project will become. And with that will come more demands for infrastructure of all types. But one transportation project that has always stayed imminent in our minds when we think of the future, is the Millennium line extension down to UBC. And now is the time to get the shovels in the ground!
     
     
  #7376  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Especially in cities of similar size as Vancouver. Massive cities such as Tokyo, New York, London, etc... don't count in this context. Those are the exceptions where long platforms and high frequencies are both needed. For small and mid sized cities 80 to 100 meters are more than enough.

I have yet to ride another system with 90 second to 2 minute frequencies in a city where the metro population is under 10 million.

By the time Vancouver is big enough to require long platforms and frequent trains, skytrain will be so old that it will already be nearing the end of its life and in need of a complete rebuild / major renovation / replacement.
Prague metro during peak times has a average frequency of 120 seconds overall. Sometimes its closer to 60 seconds on the Red line. City has 1.26 million people, metro has 2.2 million people.

Trains are full train width, have drivers, and stations are just a hair under 200 meters in length.

That's good enough frequency in my books. The average meets your 120 second mark. EN source
     
     
  #7377  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 5:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon View Post
North Road is between 40m and 50m wide. Broadway is between 24m and 28m wide.

I think you underestimate how hard it would be to fit that.

The stations on a bore would also likely be offset from the street and be excavated from surface.
Well, with the amount of money budgeted for doing a bored tunnel, you can have much more elegant steel supports or what not. Prefab lots of stuff. A wise old traffic guy once preached to me about splitting it into two steel structures so they only hold one track each, and was pretty sure it would even look good.

Not saying it's an ideal situation. There's still disruption.

But the thought that there's no disruption from bored tunnel is just sad. And wrong.

Sure, you can offset the stations a little bit, but it's still going to encroach. And the more you offset it, the more difficult to access the stations it is after the fact.

I am on the same boat as everyone going for cut and cover under 10th. But why let planners and engineers decide these things? That's why we elect activists and lawyers... To make planning and engineering decisions!
     
     
  #7378  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 6:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Broadway's a bit too dense and too narrow for that - and how would they handle the West 10th/Alma turn?
If they go that far, when they get there, it would most likely be a tunnel just due to the grade like how it worked on Clark drive for the Evergreen line.

Regardless of how they do it, there would be some sort of complicated design in that area just due to the weird nature of the plan (as Broadway basically ends etc.) and the geography (it's at the base of a steep hill.

Even the cut and cover tunnel option down tenth (which would nicely already line up, just sayin'....) might end up with a tunnel portal there, and a bored tunnel to get up the hill.

If going all the way to UBC, from there you could just go right under tenth and come up in a portal wherever the stop for point grey would be (probably near the safeway) and then go elevated past Blanca.

Of course, that's a pipe dream. They might at least make it cut and cover past Blanca, but it would sure have some nice views for the riders if it was elevated.
     
     
  #7379  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 6:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Caliplanner1 View Post
As an urban rail transportation planner from California I have to say that you're making way too much sense here for those who are hooked on LRT......
I don't get it either.

The prevailing argument is that you can build so much more LRT for the same amount of money...

But they grossly underestimate the cost of LRT.

And ignore the fact that express buses, which have been an overwhelming success anywhere they have been implemented in the lower mainland, can do everything an LRT can but for even less money!

But hey, it sure achieves the dream of every possible mode of travel going down the same corridor at a nice safe (practically stopped) speed!
     
     
  #7380  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2016, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Okay, I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this is what Montreal plans to have open in 2020.



Like, is that timeline fantasy?

How can all that be built (including tunneling under downtown Montreal and connecting the system to the existing metro system) and open by 2020, but our 6km Broadway extension (which would begin roughly the same time if all goes well) will not open until several years after?

Also, why do other Canadian cities seem to build unnecessarily long platforms? (Ottawa 120 meters, this will be 160 meters!)

To be honest seems like a waste of money to me.

I think it has been shown that with only 100 meters our skytrain lines can achieve far into heavy rail capacity. (Hell, the Canada Line can achieve a pretty suprising number with a full build out of only 50 meters).

Almost feels like a residual planning decision that stations need to be so long from the past, when far more frequent trains using shorter platforms are the superior option with our technology today. To be honest this is exactly how I fee about where I live in Japan. The platforms here must be well over 200 meters, but i have yet to ever see a train take up the entire platform (in fact most of the local trains are only 2 to 4 cars!). There is a regional train that comes by once an hour or less that has about 8 cars. Even with the regional, local, and express trains combined a train arrives at the station around once every 10 minutes. Just seems such as waste to build such big stations. Run the trains twice as frequent (please! Missing a train here —) and cut the station lengths in half. Super long stations are actually annoying when your 2 car train stoops at the other end...
Well you can always value engineer the stations and end up over capacity on the mainline expo line tracks within a generation or within a year in the case of the Canada line.

Heck, even if you don't build the whole station, at least make the track grade flat enough for a reasonable amount in either direction so you can at least make the station longer in the future.

What does Vancouver do once the expo line is at capacity? It's almost there, and there's not much that can be done in terms of longer trains or faster frequency, both are already very close to maxed out.
     
     
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