The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[flipv]

Originally Posted by niwell

Every single experience I have had with replacement buses on King, Queen, Dundas and College has gone contrary to this. Maybe they are faster at 9am on a Sunday but certainly not in rush hour traffic. You can watch on any of the transit tracking apps to see that. Traffic in general doesn't move faster when they are running replacement buses either - College was a disaster this summer for instance. The buses get just as caught up with right turning vehicles and often block both lanes when coming to a stop. Usually people divert to another street when the buses are running, but if they had to pick up the entire slack of a streetcar line the sheer number of extra vehicle would outweigh any of these supposed advantages. Plus as a cyclist buses disrupt the flow of things much more than streetcars.

As for comfort? I think most people who value their sanity also enjoy comfort. I personally know someone who had broke their arm due to overcrowding and poor pavement quality on an OC Transpo bus. But they probably should have sucked it up I assume.

No, this is in the middle of rush hour on King. Case in point, streetcars get stuck behind left turning cars, behind other streetcars, they bunch because of one up front being full, the one behind is empty, and the empty one cannot get ahead... Traffic stops every time a streetcar has to load. This creates those rolling roadblocks of traffic all over these congested downtown roads.

Buses don't have these limitations. When there is a left turning car, they spin into the right lane, they pass each other when there are obstructions and overall the trip is much quicker. I say this as someone who unfortunately has to deal with streetcars, and I couldn't hate them more. I'd be fully supportive of ripping them all out, tossing them in the lake and replacing everything by articulated buses. Completely garbage technology the way the TTC does it... Since the 504 bus has been introduced, I can get to Humber Loop in 30 mins! That was unheard of on a streetcar. Even the transfer to the 501 is seamless, and the segregated track on the Queensway makes up for the tram's shortfalls.

A normal city has limited stops, semi-segregated tracks, island stops so that the flow of traffic is unimpeded when a streetcar is loading, etc... The way Toronto/TTC has done streetcars is a complete insult to that form of transport. I agree that in essentially any other city I've ever ridden a streetcar in (Berlin, Belgrade, Prague, Milan) they are bloody quick! Only in Toronto does the streetcar move at walking pace.

As for comfort? I'm commuting, not going on some sort of self discovery journey... Speed is all I care about. My sanity is directly tied with how long it takes me to get home, and on a streetcar I know it's well over an hour. I have no problem standing on a bumpy bus for 45 mins if I know it'll get me home in that time.

Some of you must have too much time on your hands.

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, Toronto makes decisions that makes surface transit suck more than it should. Those decisions are mostly technology neutral though!

[flipv]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Yeah, Toronto makes decisions that makes surface transit suck more than it should. Those decisions are mostly technology neutral though!

Exactly, and that's why I don't like them in Toronto. I don't see the city changing the way they've done things for the last 100 years. Toronto is the capital of inertia when it comes to common sense.

[lrt's friend]

Here in Ottawa, there is still some nostalgia about our old streetcars. It was as much about the streetcars being part of the 'good old days' when people were younger with a perceived brighter future than the streetcars themselves.

But really, there were good reasons why Ottawa City Council decided to get rid of streetcars in 1958. It was mainly the cost of maintaining streetcars and the associated infrastructure, but also the impact of streetcars on traffic in downtown Ottawa. This was clearly noted in the days after streetcars were taken off the streets, how much better the traffic flow was and this applied to transit as well as regular traffic. As traffic got more heavy after the war, streetcars were becoming increasingly delayed. There are pictures of downtown Ottawa streetcar jams at Confederation Square, which was aptly named Confusion Square for many years and when they built the National War Memorial in 1938-39 there are pictures of the streets around the memorial ripped up to relocate streetcar tracks. It is hard to imagine that being acceptable today.

The fact of the matter is that streetcars are not a good choice when they are operating in mixed traffic. Buses can work around emergencies, road work and other detours and they don't block traffic because of centre lane boarding.

I have driven behind a streetcar in Toronto and was exasperated by the lack of opportunities to get around them as they stopped at every second block.

Now, I do understand how Torontonians love streetcars. They have become part of the culture of the city and they move a lot of people, but are they also partly responsible for delaying construction of the DRL?

There is periodic talk about bringing back streetcars to downtown Ottawa but I cringe at thought of it for the most part. Most of downtown Ottawa retail streets are only 4 lanes wide and I cannot imagine streetcars interacting with regular traffic in an effective way.

[Acajack]

I am not anti-bus (for an SSPer) but for some reason I've always found streetcars to offer more consistent travel times than buses. It seems like they are less often stuck in traffic (not to say they never are) because a number of drivers are intimidated by them and stay out of their way. (I am talking about on-street trams like they have in Toronto.)

Of course, the absolute deluxe trams are the ones with segrated guideways (en site propre)like you have in certain French cities like Grenoble.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not anti-bus (for an SSPer) but for some reason I've always found streetcars to offer more consistent travel times than buses. It seems like they are less often stuck in traffic (not to say they never are) because a number of drivers are intimidated by them and stay out of their way. (I am talking about on-street trams like they have in Toronto.)

Of course, the absolute deluxe trams are the ones with segrated guideways (en site propre)like you have in certain French cities like Grenoble.

When the track is blocked because of an accident, and streetcars do get into accidents, streetcars come to a standstill until the accident is cleared.

I read a story of a full Ottawa streetcar that jumped the tracks on the Chaudiere Bridge and crashed through the bridge railing and came close to landing in the Ottawa River at a place called Devil's Hole. It was a close call.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by flipv

No, this is in the middle of rush hour on King. Case in point, streetcars get stuck behind left turning cars, behind other streetcars, they bunch because of one up front being full, the one behind is empty, and the empty one cannot get ahead... Traffic stops every time a streetcar has to load. This creates those rolling roadblocks of traffic all over these congested downtown roads.

Buses don't have these limitations. When there is a left turning car, they spin into the right lane, they pass each other when there are obstructions and overall the trip is much quicker. I say this as someone who unfortunately has to deal with streetcars, and I couldn't hate them more. I'd be fully supportive of ripping them all out, tossing them in the lake and replacing everything by articulated buses. Completely garbage technology the way the TTC does it... Since the 504 bus has been introduced, I can get to Humber Loop in 30 mins! That was unheard of on a streetcar. Even the transfer to the 501 is seamless, and the segregated track on the Queensway makes up for the tram's shortfalls.

Clearly you never take any of the North-South bus routes or suburban ones because bunching is just as bad. Dufferin in particular is awful. The TTCs own studies show that the speed difference between streetcar and bus in the central city are negligible. I have never ONCE seen a 504 bus pass either another bus or a streetcar, and I live very close to King.


http://www.metronews.ca/views/toronto/fo...ments-for-getting-rid-of-streetcars.html


Metro News

[flipv]

Originally Posted by niwell

Clearly you never take any of the North-South bus routes or suburban ones because bunching is just as bad. Dufferin in particular is awful. The TTCs own studies show that the speed difference between streetcar and bus in the central city are negligible. I have never ONCE seen a 504 bus pass either another bus or a streetcar, and I live very close to King.


http://www.metronews.ca/views/toronto/fo...ments-for-getting-rid-of-streetcars.html


Metro News

As I said, I go east/west, rarely north/south. If I do, I'll likely drive. The only time I take the TTC is to commute to work (damn parking downtown), otherwise I'd drive 99.99% of the time.

I take the 504 bus once a day almost every work day. It helps that morons don't take the bus and wait for the streetcar, because we seem to zoom all the way past Dufferin in under 20 mins. That's transit done right. Similar ride on the 504 tram? 30-45 mins.

Also, given the lack of flexibility, described ad nauseum here, of streetcars - a bus is just the better way. Never got 'stuck' on a bus before. Been dumped on Queen plenty of times because all it takes is one small accident or emergency to collapse the entire streetcar network. That happens daily if anyone has TTC alerts on their phones.

[Aylmer]

In my opinion, the main transportation-related advantage of rail transit is that you can move a lot more people much fewer vehicles than is possible with buses. That doesn't mean much when you're in a Toronto-like situation of mixed traffic, but once you have reserved RoW, it's significant; as we know all too well in Ottawa, one of the fatal flaws of BRT is that you need so many buses that they create their own traffic jams.
So if a RoW tram can move 20 000 passengers with one lane, you'd need at least double the space to reliably transport the same number with BRT.
This is significant in the dense parts of cities where space is at a premium; giving up 4 lanes of traffic when you could do the same with 2 is not efficient.

Toronto's problem is that, without RoW, the streetcars lose out on their main advantage, but retain many of their downsides (lack of flexibility, inability to go around obstacles, etc.) and end up being just marginally more efficient than buses. I am certain that Toronto could transform its streetcars with a few tweaks such as completely reserved lanes, automobile left-hand hook turns (as they do in Melbourne) and better stop placement.

So should other cities emulate Toronto? No. But when done well, trams remain the most efficient solution to moving as many people in as little space possible.

[lrt's friend]

Transit bunching is inevitable whether buses or streetcars particularly when they operate in mixed traffic. This is the age old problem. I have actually seen posters making comments that it is better to run transit less frequently in order to reduce bunching. All that accomplishes is producing worse service and bunching can still occur with even longer waits in between.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by flipv

No, this is in the middle of rush hour on King. Case in point, streetcars get stuck behind left turning cars, behind other streetcars, they bunch because of one up front being full, the one behind is empty, and the empty one cannot get ahead... Traffic stops every time a streetcar has to load. This creates those rolling roadblocks of traffic all over these congested downtown roads.

Buses don't have these limitations. When there is a left turning car, they spin into the right lane, they pass each other when there are obstructions and overall the trip is much quicker. I say this as someone who unfortunately has to deal with streetcars, and I couldn't hate them more. I'd be fully supportive of ripping them all out, tossing them in the lake and replacing everything by articulated buses. Completely garbage technology the way the TTC does it... Since the 504 bus has been introduced, I can get to Humber Loop in 30 mins! That was unheard of on a streetcar. Even the transfer to the 501 is seamless, and the segregated track on the Queensway makes up for the tram's shortfalls.

A normal city has limited stops, semi-segregated tracks, island stops so that the flow of traffic is unimpeded when a streetcar is loading, etc... The way Toronto/TTC has done streetcars is a complete insult to that form of transport. I agree that in essentially any other city I've ever ridden a streetcar in (Berlin, Belgrade, Prague, Milan) they are bloody quick! Only in Toronto does the streetcar move at walking pace.

As for comfort? I'm commuting, not going on some sort of self discovery journey... Speed is all I care about. My sanity is directly tied with how long it takes me to get home, and on a streetcar I know it's well over an hour. I have no problem standing on a bumpy bus for 45 mins if I know it'll get me home in that time.

Some of you must have too much time on your hands.

Left turning cars made little impact on the eastbound routes I took. In three years, I've had two streetcars break down and each time the broken streetcar was cleared in less than a few minutes by being hooked up and towed by the next streetcar. Four replacement buses have broken down on me and you can't simply attach a bus to another bus and tow it. Collisions are the Achilles heel but, I've only been in one my entire life.

The slow speed can be attributed to too many stops which certainly doesn't favour buses weaving in and out of traffic.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by flipv

As I said, I go east/west, rarely north/south. If I do, I'll likely drive. The only time I take the TTC is to commute to work (damn parking downtown), otherwise I'd drive 99.99% of the time.

I take the 504 bus once a day almost every work day. It helps that morons don't take the bus and wait for the streetcar, because we seem to zoom all the way past Dufferin in under 20 mins. That's transit done right. Similar ride on the 504 tram? 30-45 mins.

Also, given the lack of flexibility, described ad nauseum here, of streetcars - a bus is just the better way. Never got 'stuck' on a bus before. Been dumped on Queen plenty of times because all it takes is one small accident or emergency to collapse the entire streetcar network. That happens daily if anyone has TTC alerts on their phones.

Ridiculous ... One small accident or emergency to collapse the entire streetcar network.

[flipv]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Ridiculous ... One small accident or emergency to collapse the entire streetcar network.

Should've meant route. Had enough fun experiences on trams for the last 20 years to hate them more than any other form of transit.

I have walked faster than the streetcar, and they're just plain garbage in Toronto. Those of you who think otherwise are living in some fantasy. Torontonians love to spit on their streetcars. Most non-SSP/UT nerds hate them. They are slow, inefficient and frustrating.

They're absolutely glorious if there are no cars on the road.. But that ain't going to happen. Ever.


**To add how pathetic Toronto is at streetcars, the new Queen's Quay segregated 'LRT' moves slower than its previous incarnation.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Ridiculous ... One small accident or emergency to collapse the entire streetcar network.

Unless the streetcar itself is involved in the accident (which is quite rare), wouldn't they just move the other vehicles off the tracks at some point?

And if a bus is involved in a crash, the bus would stay immobile for a fairly long time as well. Pending the investigation.

[WhipperSnapper]

In my experience, routes are quickly rerouted in case of a blockage on the tracks. For the most part, buses will be too.


Sure Torontonians love to spit on their streetcars. They aren't ideal and can be frustrating but, please, show me something better that is reasonable to implement? The average Torontonian doesn't think that far which is why Ford gets elected. As I said, there are simply too many stops where transit has come to a full stop for one passenger in rush hour. Buses? That's just stupid.

Walking faster than a streetcar is rich. I can't take you seriously.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Sure Torontonians love to spit on their streetcars. They aren't ideal and can be frustrating but, please, show me something better that is reasonable to implement? The average Torontonian doesn't think that far which is why Ford gets elected. As I said, there are simply too many stops where transit has come to a full stop for one passenger in rush hour. Buses? That's just stupid.

Walking faster than a streetcar is rich. I can't take you seriously.

The areas where the TTC has removed closely spaced stops has made a noticeable difference - this is a policy that should be continued. Still lots of stops that could be easily removed.

It occurs to me that flipv may be referring to getting off the 501 at Roncesvalles and transferring to the 504. This will save you a bunch of time regardless of whether you take a bus or streetcar. The 504 is simply faster through Parkdale, which has little to do with transit mode. The North-South streets simply don't line up at Queen which has resulted in an overabundance of traffic lights and the street in general is almost always slow moving.

[Innsertnamehere]

Queen street in general is a slower street since there is so much more commercial retail along its entire length. I live roughly halfway between the two lines and take the 504 most days since it take 15 minutes to get to Yonge street instead of 20 on Queen.

And no, the 504?never takes 35 minutes to get to Dufferin from Yonge. I get off at Sudbury, 2 stops before, and the trip is usually 15-20 minutes, 25 max. Going to dufferin after that is super quick and never has any traffic, takes maybe 3 extra minutes. Not 35, more like 20.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Sure Torontonians love to spit on their streetcars. They aren't ideal and can be frustrating but, please, show me something better that is reasonable to implement?

While it isn't cheap, the best way forward for east-west transit in Toronto, south of Bloor street, is to build the DRL to the west and then do a major overhaul of the surface routes so that there's more of an emphasis on small, community-focused north-south routes, rather than long haul east-west streetcars.

flip has a point in that the TTC hasn't rethought its surface transit network in decades. Liberty Village has no direct service except the 504, leading UberHop to swoop in and scoop up latent demand. There's also no service on Bremner-Fort York Blvd. despite the fact that thousands of residents live along that corridor, and it would be a direct link to Union station.

[Innsertnamehere]

^there is bus service along there. Nobody takes it because it is really slow, though. They introduced the route earlier this year.

Routes focus on the east-west direction because that is ultimately how Toronto was built. Almost all of its commercial strips are east west, not north-south. Parliament, Ossington (only south of Dundas), Roncesvalles, and Spadina are essentially the only north-south commercial strips outside of the immediate downtown core.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

^there is bus service along there. Nobody takes it because it is really slow, though. They introduced the route earlier this year.

I looked into this just now. I don't know why they bothered connecting the old Esplanade bus with a bus serving the western side, since I don't see much of a need for people on either side to travel through downtown in this way. Besides, they routed it along Front street, which has been a construction mess for the last few years.

I was thinking that the bus would travel like this:

Liberty St. -> Strachan -> Fleet -> Fort York -> Bremner -> turn around at the ACC cul de sac.