Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Vin

Maybe everyone anticipates the difficulty to densify West Broadway further compared to the potential to densify in the tri-cities. The Evergreen line will definitely bring about a boom in high-rise construction there, but in Van west, not really possible. The selfish old guard will come out to "defend their turfs". The most practical thing to do is to extend the skytrain in stages: first to Arbutus, and then possibly further west to UBC after the old guard die off sometime in the future.

...that's going to be a long time from now. Better to build it all at once, if feasible.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I don't think anybody here would dispute the need for a Skytrain extension all the way to UBC. We're just trying to be realistic about what would get approved.

This will likely cost over 2x the amount of the Evergreen Line. And as we know, the only multi-billion dollar projects that get easily greenlit are big bridges.

Yeah there are actually numerous 4 storey smaller condo developments constantly going in between about Macdonald st. to Alma, from 4th to 16th; most go under the radar. it's really just that segment on Broadway from about Arbutus to Trafalgar that doesn't have higher density but i'm sure it will change in the near future. Also many SFH in Kits are already 2-3 units in each house with many cars parked on all the streets, I'm sure numerous people would quickly lose the car and choose to take a subway if it were built.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Vin

Maybe everyone anticipates the difficulty to densify West Broadway further compared to the potential to densify in the tri-cities. The Evergreen line will definitely bring about a boom in high-rise construction there, but in Van west, not really possible. The selfish old guard will come out to "defend their turfs". The most practical thing to do is to extend the skytrain in stages: first to Arbutus, and then possibly further west to UBC after the old guard die off sometime in the future.

I'm hoping the next city government we elect will neuter the west sides ability to be so self righteous and self centered.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

Yeah there are actually numerous 4 storey smaller condo developments constantly going in between about Macdonald st. to Alma, from 4th to 16th; most go under the radar. it's really just that segment on Broadway from about Arbutus to Trafalgar that doesn't have higher density but i'm sure it will change in the near future. Also many SFH in Kits are already 2-3 units in each house with many cars parked on all the streets, I'm sure numerous people would quickly lose the car and choose to take a subway if it were built.

Exactly. There's a lot more YIMBYs and undecideds in Kitsilano than you'd think - it's the West Point Grey segment that gets most of the resistance.

[Sheba]

Ultimately the problem comes down to money. We have to borrow to get anything that isn't a bridge built. It would be nice if that wasn't reality - but it is.

Even borrowing to get a subway out to Arbutus (which is how far the gov has agreed to) is going to be stupidly expensive. Meanwhile everywhere else in the region is supposed to get their projects pushed back and be happy about it so CoV can get a longer subway?

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

This will likely cost over 2x the amount of the Evergreen Line.

Yeah, but with easily twice the ridership.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

And as we know, the only multi-billion dollar projects that get easily greenlit are big bridges.

I don't think that's a fair comparison, though. The bridges will pay for themselves, whereas big mass transit projects like this likely never fully pay themselves off through fare recovery.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by jhausner

While you have a valid point you could have used without the over-exageration and bias in your point. Next time try dropping "needlessly-big" and just saying "10 lane bridge" and also try 80,000 riders on opening day instead of the ridiculous 250,000+ which isn't anywhere near realistic or reasonable.

99-B + 009 bus routes = about 80,000 daily during the work week. That number isn't magically going to increase by another 170,000 people that's just ridiculous to claim such. At most I would be surprised if the line doesn't peak around 140,000 ridership per day which is still 110,000 rides short of your number.

Your POINT though that they found the money for other major projects and this one is definitely worthy of that same treatement, is valid and I agree with you 100%. Like I've said for years, this should have been built a decade ago.

250,000 on opening day:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...0000-trips-on-first-day/article18503280/



You can't just count existing bus routes on that one street. Heavy ridership along 41st and 49th St bus routes are from UBC overflow. Synergies with the Canada line and elimination of transfers always generates new ridership. Every time a line gets built, bus routes are optimized to funnel more people into skytrain. The Cambie corridor did not have anything close to 140,000 daily transit ridership pre-Canada line.

[Klazu]

That's an interesting map! I am surprised Richmond Brickhouse surpasses King George in connecting traffic. The map also goes to show that you can generate transit traffic by building towers around Skytrain stations.

[dleung]

Besides condos, downtown Richmond has a density of restaurants and businesses like no other

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by dleung

Besides condos, downtown Richmond has a density of restaurants and businesses like no other

So if i were a visitor from the middle east, Europe, south America, U.S., African nations other parts of Canada etc. and i were to look up at the majority of street signs and be able to instantly determine that it must be a restaurant?

...or may i be totally confused and think most signage is completely tailored for a certain target market that isn't interested in my business at all...

[jollyburger]

Have they ever posted details on how they got that 250K number?

The mayor’s office said the numbers are based on TransLink’s Broadway Corridor trip diary and study that came out in 2013.

The study concluded rapid transit is needed in the corridor and offered three options as solutions, with anywhere from 160,000 to 350,000 daily users by 2041.

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/2014/05/06/broadway-subway-could-fund-rest-of-translink-robertson

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by dleung

You can't just count existing bus routes on that one street. Heavy ridership along 41st and 49th St bus routes are from UBC overflow. Synergies with the Canada line and elimination of transfers always generates new ridership. Every time a line gets built, bus routes are optimized to funnel more people into skytrain. The Cambie corridor did not have anything close to 140,000 daily transit ridership pre-Canada line.

That seems to be one of the assumptions, take whatever current Broadway usage and double it to get the 250K number.

Slide 18:

http://council.vancouver.ca/20121127/documents/rr1presentation.pdf

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

So if i were a visitor from the middle east, Europe, south America, U.S., African nations other parts of Canada etc. and i were to look up at the majority of street signs and be able to instantly determine that it must be a restaurant?

...or may i be totally confused and think most signage is completely tailored for a certain target market that isn't interested in my business at all...

Maybe BC should institute mandatory English signs like Quebec does with French and force Chinese businesses to cater to your interests.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Klazu

That's an interesting map! I am surprised Richmond Brickhouse surpasses King George in connecting traffic. The map also goes to show that you can generate transit traffic by building towers around Skytrain stations.

But the map doesn't show traffic?

Combined Population & Employment per hectare (within 800m of the station)

[officedweller]

Cone of silence over cost estimates for Broadway subway, Surrey LRT
https://www.biv.com/article/2016/9/cone-silence-over-cost-estimates-broadway-subway-s/

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Cone of silence over cost estimates for Broadway subway, Surrey LRT
https://www.biv.com/article/2016/9/cone-silence-over-cost-estimates-broadway-subway-s/

.... to be revealed during the BC election campaign (if costs are near previous estimates) or after the election (if costs are over previous estimates).

[officedweller]

The media probably want a firm figure (at a time when it's unreasonable to provide one because of variables)
- so they can scream the project is over budget when it gets built.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by jhausner

From what I know the geology along Broadway is much the same as North Delta, mainly a lot of boulders and sub-surface rock that is extremely difficult to cut through. Using a TBM will be really slow through there, cost quite a bit, and potentially run into issues with the geology. It's not like TBMs cut through the ground like it is butter.

Cut and cover would speed the project up quite a bit I'd imagine but would never happen given the disruption to the corridor and it would ultimately be political suicide based on the experiences of the Canada Line construction.

So 4-6 years is very likely geological problem caused delays.

Originally Posted by logan5

Broadway's screwed regardless of what construction method is used. The stations have to be majorly excavated at only 1 km intervals. Even if the cost was the same, the time savings would be worth it. 4 to 6 years? jesus christ that will be painful to watch.

Just some good discussion happening on the South Of Fraser Rapid Transit thread that I wanted to relocate here...

Now for my opinions.

To me, 4-6 years for that short of distance is ridiculous. Now I get that there are definitely going to be utilities that need to be relocated and that anything that goes underground gets complicated and expensive but to me, the cut-and-cover option sounds like the better way to go.

Now I don't know what all of the problems were during the Canada Line construction using this method but from what I understand the biggest problem was drivers getting into traffic jams on Cambie because of the reduced road availability. Just briefly going over the map, to me, it looks like there are more roads traveling long distances from east to west along the Broadway corridor therefore opening up more alternative routes than the Cambie corridor has going North to South. With this in mind, would it not make the cut-and-cover method a more feasible option to consider?

[crazyjoeda]

I don't think traffic jams were the main problem with cut and cover along Cambie. It was more the disruption to businesses that lost road access during construction. Part of the Canada Line was a bored tunnel and they probably should have started the bored tunnel at King Edward, but overall I think the cut and cover construction worked well for the Canada Line.

Broadway is different. The entire length of the Broadway Subway will run under a fairly dense commercial street with many shops, malls and offices so the disruption to those businesses would be even more significant. Additionally, Broadway is a much busier street than Cambie and the long traffic disruption would be unacceptable. Parallel routes are either already congested or unsuitable for large volumes of traffic.

I recall some discussion about possible building a cut and cover tunnel under 10th Avenue but believe that is no longer being considered as an option. A bored tunnel under Broadway is the most reasonable option.

[ronthecivil]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

I don't think traffic jams were the main problem with cut and cover along Cambie. It was more the disruption to businesses that lost road access during construction. Part of the Canada Line was a bored tunnel and they probably should have started the bored tunnel at King Edward, but overall I think the cut and cover construction worked well for the Canada Line.

Broadway is different. The entire length of the Broadway Subway will run under a fairly dense commercial street with many shops, malls and offices so the disruption to those businesses would be even more significant. Additionally, Broadway is a much busier street than Cambie and the long traffic disruption would be unacceptable. Parallel routes are either already congested or unsuitable for large volumes of traffic.

I recall some discussion about possible building a cut and cover tunnel under 10th Avenue but believe that is no longer being considered as an option. A bored tunnel under Broadway is the most reasonable option.

Wow, that's a bad decision.

The only reason you should ever build a bored tunnel is because it's the only option. It's a roll of the dice and schedules and cost can not only double, they can go exponential if things really go bad. Look at all the fun they had with the Clark bored tunnel (they had to do that one) and it was deep underground.

Cut and cover under 10th is the obvious answer. You can keep Broadway and the buses open. Once the project is done, close the street to all but local traffic (make it so you can only drive one block) and turn it into a long bike and pedestrian route. The planners could no doubt turn it into something very nice as it's not like there's not enough demand on Broadway for development and commerce to spread a little north.

In a bored tunnel solution, besides the massive amount of schedule and cost risk, never mind the greatly increased over all cost, you still don't save yourself from the disruption to traffic and business.

Everywhere you will have a station, you will still have a (now massive, and very deep) excavation, likely near all the key intersecting arterials, that will block all access through the area for 2+ years at each location.

Once it is built, every station will be that much further to go into as well. Instead of being one or two floors down, it will be in the order of five or six. An extra four or five minute in, and then out, adds up, and reduces the appeal of the station. Good luck finding a way to get any natural light in there.

All the utilities and drainage would need to be pumped that much higher up. You would have many more escalators and elevators, and their non stop maintenance, to deal with.

Besides, didn't the Cambie business owners loose their court case? Perhaps people are learning the wrong lesson.

The businesses don't own Broadway. The residents don't own 10th. The city does.

Why should the rest of the Lower Mainland, and the residents of BC, pay the premium because Vancouver residents aren't willing to go through the disruptions every other city in the region that has gotten skytrain has had to suffer through?

If I was the province I would pay my third for a cut and cover option, and not a penny more.