Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The section that they want to run down the middle of center street will cause traffic gridlock, be unsafe for pedestrians, bad for business and it will hurt any redevelopment plans proposed for the area.

I think I see what you're getting at but Centre street is already terrible for the pedestrian. Many successful LRT's have been run on street.

Take this section of U-bahn in Stuttgart for example. The train runs at about 40-50 km/h

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Stuttga...11c7791cfe4!8m2!3d48.7758459!4d9.1829321


traffic gridlock: Who that lives along centre street would want to drive to downtown on a daily basis when there is a rapid transit system at least 800m from their residence. If they really want to drive they can take Edmonton trail, 10th street or deerfoot depending on where they live.

Now it's time to ask you a question. How much do you think it costs to build one km of subway on centre street?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

traffic gridlock: Who that lives along centre street would want to drive to downtown on a daily basis when there is a rapid transit system at least 800m from their residence. If they really want to drive they can take Edmonton trail, 10th street or deerfoot depending on where they live.

Fully agree with this. It should reduce traffic gridlock.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

If people find it a major hassle to reach those businesses they'll go elsewhere.

Yeah, it's really too bad nobody's thought of a way to move a mass amount of people quickly to those affected businesses.

[Rollerstud98]

Those who do want to drive will likely move to locations where driving is easier and then those who want to utilize transit move in because transit is super convenient. Seems logical to me.

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

I think I see what you're getting at but Centre street is already terrible for the pedestrian. Many successful LRT's have been run on street.

Take this section of U-bahn in Stuttgart for example. The train runs at about 40-50 km/h

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Stuttga...11c7791cfe4!8m2!3d48.7758459!4d9.1829321


...

Agree this is a good design; it's a streetcar-like, not rapid transit. Are pedestrians going to be able to cross at every intersection given the halfway rapid transit design Calgary is implementing? No. Do one or the other. Rapid transit to move high volumes of people, similar to Calgary's existing LRT. Or a slow streetcar set up, with long trains, pedestrian crossings ever block, to fit into the neighbourhood versus cutting it in two.

If the community wants that kind of vision, streetcar-like, communicate the trade-off and make it successful by having the community accept more employment and residential density to support the pedestrian realm/other modes for a commercial district like Kensington or 17 Ave.

Instead from what's on the station plans Calgary's getting buildings zoned denser pretty much exclusively on Centre St and very limited crossings to mitigate ridership losses due to less mobility (the ability to travel a given distance in a given time) further north. How easy will it be too reduce the speed/frequency of the LRT, hopefully maintaining safety, to facilitate trips across Centre St in the future once people expect the shorter trip time?

Don't halfway it like 16 Ave N. Calgary ended up with not a limited access high volume road, nor a urban boulevard stimulating redevelopment and multi-modal use. Calgary got a road motorists complain about because it has too many lights, congestion, etc. and 6-8 lanes of traffic, vacant property, large setbacks with parking in front, and blank stone sound walls making the pedestrian realm terrible. Planters in the median and high-end streetlamps. Jack of all trades, master of none. Still salvageable though (parking lane, travel lane, transit lane, x2...) High hopes for North Crosstown BRT.

[milomilo]

^^^ agreed. Also travel a few roads over on the Stuttgart example and you get a more realistic demonstration of what Centre St will be like, but worse because Centre St is narrower:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@48.8047669,9...SRUsBWPlE5h5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[googspecial]

Actually they seem to be of very similar width sidewalk to sidewalk. Of course the width varies a bit at different locations along both streets. I'd say you're right though, this is a more realistic demonstration of what Centre St will be like.

[Fuzz]

Are they going with open tracks? I thought it would be done like 7th ave?

[googspecial]

Here's another European example, in Budapest. It has "closed tracks" similar to 7 Ave. With that, the curb separation and low station platforms - this could give a good idea of how the tracks will look, although the street itself is quite different than Centre.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.4907018,1...cywTotZXocjCMVw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[DizzyEdge]

One big difference between the two examples is the Stuttgart street seems to be a 'sleepier' mostly residential street, whereas Centre, at least until 28th ave, is primarily a retail street + a main rush hour route. I think ped crossings every 2nd avenue is fine, which is mostly what already exists, since the avenues are short north-south. if it's every 3 or 4 blocks that might be a problem.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Don't halfway it like 16 Ave N. Calgary ended up with not a limited access high volume road, nor a urban boulevard stimulating redevelopment and multi-modal use. Calgary got a road motorists complain about because it has too many lights, congestion, etc. and 6-8 lanes of traffic, vacant property, large setbacks with parking in front, and blank stone sound walls making the pedestrian realm terrible. Planters in the median and high-end streetlamps. Jack of all trades, master of none. Still salvageable though (parking lane, travel lane, transit lane, x2...) High hopes for North Crosstown BRT.

On 16th Avenue Project: Nerdy, but if people are into project management, I would suggest a read of the project audit report on the city website. The project was cursed from the start every step of the way from classic failures.

Explains a lot about why the project failed the way it did as you describe above:

• Project began digging without agreed upon project vision / goals (i.e. is it a road capacity? pedestrian improvement project? etc.). Surprisingly, the 2004 road department deferred to what they know. At the "half-way" result is what was produced Vroom.
  
• Project began without all land purchased that was needed. As scope changed randomly, more land became needed, further delaying project.
  
• No coordination between work crews and resources competition from other projects. Construction crews were shared with Glenmore Elbow-5th interchange project that was happening at the same time.
  
• Unrealistic schedule that gave no slack time for any delay. (Hence: why it was delayed so long during construction: competing crews, purchasing land, changing scopes)
  
• Constant - and undocumented - scope changes: Most egregiously, the forgotten about Rosedale 16th Ave sound wall. That wasn't in scope, nor officially approved. Rosedale rallied against the construction 3 years in, caught an ear of council and got that included against the vision of creating a pedestrian-friendly urban boulevard (i.e. the whole point of the project to begin with). Congrats! We created another publicly funded, gated community for the wealthy on the backs of a pedestrian-improvement project.

Not all these things are the project team's fault of course. There is political influence all over this one. But interesting read nonetheless.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Agree this is a good design; it's a streetcar-like, not rapid transit. Are pedestrians going to be able to cross at every intersection given the halfway rapid transit design Calgary is implementing? No.

Well, if you hop on the Canada section there are plenty of people that say the C-train is not rapid transit.

I understand what you're getting at. Obviously grade separation is always ideal. What is the point of using a low floor technology if so many people here are advocating subway from 16th ave to Inglewood? How much is is grade separation south of 16th ave going to cost including a 9th ave station?...And yes...we should service Cresecent Heights high school and the community with a station.

Also, the city could implement a pedestrian/bike refuge along certain points of centre.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@53.5104289,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

I agree that 16th ave is a failure. 10 years has gone by and there has been little development on all the empty lots.

[CrossedTheTracks]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Also, the city could implement a pedestrian/bike refuge along certain points of centre.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@53.5104289,-...itch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Yes, they should! Or like this one in Seattle: https://www.google.ca/maps/@47.5683361,-...7DBTDEOSDcVlA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

[jeremy.r]

Some more detailed concept drawings for the two Beltine options (12th Ave surface or tunnel) are up on the City's website. The 12th Ave surface option would have 11th Ave become one way Eastbound and 10th Ave one way Westbound.

http://engage.calgary.ca/greenline/beltline
Surface Option
Tunnel Option

[artvandelay]

I still think choosing 12th Ave over 10th is stupid. It pushes the Olympic Way station further away from the East Village and Railtown for limited benefit. Most people in Connaught are still going to be better off walking to 7th Avenue.

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by jeremy.r

Some more detailed concept drawings for the two Beltine options (12th Ave surface or tunnel) are up on the City's website. The 12th Ave surface option would have 11th Ave become one way Eastbound and 10th Ave one way Westbound.

http://engage.calgary.ca/greenline/beltline
Surface Option
Tunnel Option

We need fewer one-ways, not a more complicated system of one-ways spread across 3 instead of 2 E-W routes.

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by artvandelay

I still think choosing 12th Ave over 10th is stupid. It pushes the Olympic Way station further away from the East Village and Railtown for limited benefit. Most people in Connaught are still going to be better off walking to 7th Avenue.

Yeah, I don't understand why anyone would want to remove the line from 10th Ave, which has a ton of redevelopment potential, and place it on 12th Ave, which will forever be stuck with the limited vision of the Stampede Board.

Straight shot down 10th Ave seems much more efficient to me. Less turns and signals will reduce capital costs. Avoiding an unnecessary diversion south will allow trains to maintain a steady speed while entering the Beltline.

I hope the planners have presented the community with these options only to humour them and say "well, we tried," later on.

[milomilo]

Those stupidly sharp corners (does anyone from the city actually ride the current LRT?) will guarantee that section will be achingly slow anyway, so might as well build the surface option to save money.

The stations also seem too close - why not move Centre Street station as far west as possible?

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Those stupidly sharp corners (does anyone from the city actually ride the current LRT?) will guarantee that section will be achingly slow anyway, so might as well build the surface option to save money.

The stations also seem too close - why not move Centre Street station as far west as possible?

Exactly. Why slow trains down (and in a surface option create the inevitable screeching noise of trains navigating a tight turn 20 hours a day) to collect a few people who are too lazy to walk an extra 2 blocks north to 10th Ave? Or up to 7th Ave, for that matter?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by CalgaryAlex

Yeah, I don't understand why anyone would want to remove the line from 10th Ave, which has a ton of redevelopment potential, and place it on 12th Ave, which will forever be stuck with the limited vision of the Stampede Board.

Straight shot down 10th Ave seems much more efficient to me. Less turns and signals will reduce capital costs. Avoiding an unnecessary diversion south will allow trains to maintain a steady speed while entering the Beltline.

I hope the planners have presented the community with these options only to humour them and say "well, we tried," later on.

From what I have heard: sanitary sewer trunk lines.