Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Its good to know that us inner city residents are second class citizens who's best interests can be disregarded and leveraged for the betterment of people who chose a life style that is financially unsustainable for the city as a whole, and who dont pull their own weight in terms of paying for city services.

I believe this type of logic and sentiment is antithetical to our urban project. What's the goal of transit anyway? The success of the Green Line relies on its ability to provide a travel option to those north of Beddington and south of Glenmore. The widespread support for LRT projects in Calgary is in part due to the effectiveness of Blue and Red lines at serving the inner city and the suburbs, the wealthy and the disadvantaged, the conservative and the liberal equally. As a result, we live in one of the most cohesive, progressive, and equitable cities on the planet. That may sound like an overstatement, but I dare you to survey citizens in other cities what they think of specific neighbourhoods and suburbs in the metropolitan areas. We are alone out here on the prairies, and we are closer to one another for it. Calgary is by no means perfect or equal, but it's by no means bad in this regard. Teaching upper-middle class suburbs the value of transit is a giant leap in building an equitable society. Yes, we want to provide better service for those who already take the bus, walk, or bike - but it might be even more important to give those who would drive 50 km/day an alternative.

Should people pay for the services they use? Yes, ideally, but the effects of someone's actions go farther than themselves. There is value to me if you take transit, and if I can convince you that there is value in it for you as well, we'll have a healthier, happier city. I'd like it if there weren't teams, but if there are, I want my team to be the one that lets everybody join - even bullies and rich kids. It sounds cheesy, but that's how you win the game.

[jeremy.r]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Does anyone know if there are plans to speed the 302 bus route as they build the LRT? Initial plans were that the 302 was supposed to shave 10 minutes off the route between downtown and Douglas Glen as part of the BRT improvement plan - when the LRT was fast tracked, were all of the BRT improvements removed from the scope? The 302 bus route doesn't really feel very 'express' at the moment!

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Some improvements might still come, like intersection skips. Otherwise, no, as the LRT ROW and the BRT ROW are one and the same.

Two planned this fall from what I can see - Queue jumps at Barlow/114th and a transit only connection between 40 St and 126 Ave.

You can see some plans by clicking on the small pictures here: http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TI/Pages/Transit-projects/Green-line/construction.aspx

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by jeremy.r

Two planned this fall from what I can see - Queue jumps at Barlow/114th and a transit only connection between 40 St and 126 Ave.

You can see some plans by clicking on the small pictures here: http://www.calgary.ca/Transportation/TI/Pages/Transit-projects/Green-line/construction.aspx

I'm excited for the transit only connection between 40th and 126th. Too long the loading docks behind the Superstore in South Trail Crossing have been lacking the high quality transit provided to the loading docks behind other Superstores, like the loading docks behind the Southland Superstore, the loading docks behind the McKnight/Westwinds Superstore, the loading docks behind the Shawnessy Superstore.

[lubicon]

What was the breakdown of the Council vote - ie who voted in favor and against the project?

[outoftheice]

Vote was 10-3 but can't remember for sure the 3 that voted against. I think two of them were Chabot and Magliocca... I think the third might have actually been the Mayor? Jim Stevenson and Diane Colley-Urquhart were the two absent Councillors for the vote.

[sim]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

I believe this type of logic and sentiment is antithetical to our urban project. What's the goal of transit anyway? The success of the Green Line relies on its ability to provide a travel option to those north of Beddington and south of Glenmore. The widespread support for LRT projects in Calgary is in part due to the effectiveness of Blue and Red lines at serving the inner city and the suburbs, the wealthy and the disadvantaged, the conservative and the liberal equally. As a result, we live in one of the most cohesive, progressive, and equitable cities on the planet. That may sound like an overstatement, but I dare you to survey citizens in other cities what they think of specific neighbourhoods and suburbs in the metropolitan areas. We are alone out here on the prairies, and we are closer to one another for it. Calgary is by no means perfect or equal, but it's by no means bad in this regard. Teaching upper-middle class suburbs the value of transit is a giant leap in building an equitable society. Yes, we want to provide better service for those who already take the bus, walk, or bike - but it might be even more important to give those who would drive 50 km/day an alternative.

Should people pay for the services they use? Yes, ideally, but the effects of someone's actions go farther than themselves. There is value to me if you take transit, and if I can convince you that there is value in it for you as well, we'll have a healthier, happier city. I'd like it if there weren't teams, but if there are, I want my team to be the one that lets everybody join - even bullies and rich kids. It sounds cheesy, but that's how you win the game.

In principal I get what you are trying to say here; however, I'm not so sure how factually based it is. Last I checked, Calgary was considered the most unequal of Canada's big cities. Canada isn't exactly exemplary in terms of general income equality among peer nations either, so I would conclude your statement to be rather optimistic. I can't say this has all that much to do with transit in and of itself, other than an expensive transit line's main objective isn't necessarily to provide some X number of people more options, if Y number of people are served more effectively. Public transit, despite the optimistic sentiment and rightfully identifying its potential as so, will likely never be the great equalizer in Calgary. Outside of downtown, it's rather marginal in its access contributions (a fault in poor land use more than anything).

Less seriously, and to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I'm not sure anyone can win a game if there is only one team (?) Not to say it isn't a worthy goal.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by sim

In principal I get what you are trying to say here; however, I'm not so sure how factually based it is. Last I checked, Calgary was considered the most unequal of Canada's big cities. Canada isn't exactly exemplary in terms of general income equality among peer nations either, so I would conclude your statement to be rather optimistic. I can't say this has all that much to do with transit in and of itself, other than an expensive transit line's main objective isn't necessarily to provide some X number of people more options, if Y number of people are served more effectively. Public transit, despite the optimistic sentiment and rightfully identifying its potential as so, will likely never be the great equalizer in Calgary. Outside of downtown, it's rather marginal in its access contributions (a fault in poor land use more than anything).

Less seriously, and to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I'm not sure anyone can win a game if there is only one team (?) Not to say it isn't a worthy goal.

A fully socialist economic structure is not par excellence, so while I think we should be careful not to "railroad" this transit conversation into something else, it is important to understand that some level of pay and work diversity is healthy. A complete homogenization of the urban fabric and employment landscape would be a fail in many ways.

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by craner

Exactly!
I don't understand why the community wouldn't want the tunnel to run as far north as possible.

I'm already on the record... underground to McKnight.

North of McKnight the street grid is less pedestrian friendly and the right of way is wide enough for LRT and four traffic lanes. But I'd also say to basically all of Tuxedo and Highland that we're changing to zoning to allow for transit supportive density from Edmonton Trail to 4 St NW, which the community wouldn't like.

[ClaytonA]

[URL="http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-lrt-needs-ndp-support[/URL]

The NDP won't announce it by the end of the year, it'll be the budget in March. Next March's provincial budget might be interesting, especially if oil dips again as forecast and GDP is negative until 3rd quarter 2017. The NDP want to get re-elected and having too big a deficit will hurt their chances. Balancing act.

The projects still a massive win for Calgary if it's BRT to 16 Ave north and the LRT gets down to Sheppard with BRT further south. In RouteAhead wasn't that far as LRT for a Calgary population of 1.5 million?

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by sim

...

Less seriously, and to be a bit of a devil's advocate, I'm not sure anyone can win a game if there is only one team (?) Not to say it isn't a worthy goal.

Maybe it's more like a recreation league where the main goal is networking, fitness, etc and winning mean's something else than the score. Or maybe he's implying the other team isn't part of Calgary, it is another city, Toronto, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Denver, etc that Calgary's trying to attract a business from? Maybe the game is between cities, and Calgary pulling together in one direction is stronger for it.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

I'm already on the record... underground to McKnight.

North of McKnight the street grid is less pedestrian friendly and the right of way is wide enough for LRT and four traffic lanes. But I'd also say to basically all of Tuxedo and Highland that we're changing to zoning to allow for transit supportive density from Edmonton Trail to 4 St NW, which the community wouldn't like.

I live on the border of Mount Pleasant and Tuxedo and I agree with this completely.

[holhm22]

Quite a decent amount of new renderings of the 28th & 16th Avenue Stations in this pdf

[Chadillaccc]

Very cool! Good to see the plans are coming along quicker than I expected.

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by holhm22

Quite a decent amount of new renderings of the 28th & 16th Avenue Stations in this pdf

Thanks for that. Interesting to imagine the future.

[OuttaTheBurbs]

I went to the Green Line information session about the Beltline alignment tonight at the Decidedly Jazz building. 12 ave (surface and tunneled) came out ahead of the 10th ave options in the City's evaluation. Jury is still out on whether to bury it on 12th or not. The surface option ranked just marginally higher than the fully tunneled option when all of the evaluation criteria were combined.

[Myke]

Originally Posted by OuttaTheBurbs

I went to the Green Line information session about the Beltline alignment tonight at the Decidedly Jazz building. 12 ave (surface and tunneled) came out ahead of the 10th ave options in the City's evaluation. Jury is still out on whether to bury it on 12th or not. The surface option ranked just marginally higher than the fully tunneled option when all of the evaluation criteria were combined.

According to the Beltline Neighbourhoods Association, 12th ave underground came out on top.

http://www.beltlineyyc.ca/12_ave_underground_ranks_first

[Chadillaccc]

Awesome news! I mean it would work better for me if it was 10th Underground, because my favorite bar is like a block away from Centre Street South Station, I could just hop on the train at 28th Ave N Station and be there in minutes. However, I think 12th Ave will be better useful for more people. I mean for me and my partner, the Green Line will be awesome regardless, it will be the difference between driving and taking transit when we go out for a night on the town(assuming we still live here in 2023).

[craner]

Originally Posted by OuttaTheBurbs

I went to the Green Line information session about the Beltline alignment tonight at the Decidedly Jazz building. 12 ave (surface and tunneled) came out ahead of the 10th ave options in the City's evaluation. Jury is still out on whether to bury it on 12th or not. The surface option ranked just marginally higher than the fully tunneled option when all of the evaluation criteria were combined.

My god - don't put it on the surface.

[RyLucky]

The big surprise here, and essentially the key factor in their argument, is that 12th Ave Underground is the cheapest underground option. I'd like to know how and exactly what specs of each option they assumed.

[ByeByeBaby]

The basic takeaway from the info session was that the two 12th Ave alignments were preferred over the two 10th Ave. The underground one is substantially better than the surface, but is obviously much more money. I personally think most of the preference for 12th Ave is a well-meaning but misguided approach that betrays a suburban viewpoint that fundamentally does not understand urban spaces, but to be fair that could be Calgary's motto if it fit on the letterhead.

The engagement page has slightly more details, the displays from last night's open house are supposed to go up shortly.