Tsawwassen First Nation Updates

[dleung]

Originally Posted by hankthetank

Please read the entirety of my posts before jumping to what amount to racist and incorrect assumptions.
Developers at TFN are paying for every road being built in the community. Nobody would let TFN hook up to their sanitary so they had to construct their own $23 million sewer plant. Talk about wasting money on infrastructure, I'm sure you were outraged on behalf of TFN that other municipalities wouldn't let them hook into their system saving millions of dollars?
I agree that sprawl shouldn't be subsidized and at TFN it's remarkably less so than many other municipalities. All the residential, commercial and industrial development is being paid for by developers. The community TFN is building will be far more walkable and complete than much of what is brung built in surrounding municipalities and what has already been built. Plus it's providing jobs and housing for TFN members. Yes, it's come at a cost but it's pretty arrogant to sit here and blame people who are still treated as lesser people to this day for developing something pretty similar to what other municipalities do.

When's the last time Metro Vancouver approved a mega mall in the middle of farmland? It runs counter to all growth plans for Metro, and none of the surrounding municipalities want this in a million years (main problems are always traffic and hurting local businesses). It's only allowed to happen because it's on TFN land, so of course the project being self-serviced is a bare-minimum requirement. But the fact that developers don't have to compensate the region for completely messing up the regional land-use planning is already a subsidy to car use and part of a larger problem. I'm going to stop because I have a feeling that you're just gonna call me racist again for not liking the mall lol

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

I know, i just found it surprising that they haven't used any real plants indoors. Plastic plants are cheap looking and hokey. I can't imagine how high the VOC levels in the air must be with all the new materials.

Ya the lack of real plants is sad and pathetic. I can't believe plastic plants are still a thing, anywhere. Either use real plants or something else.

[Vin]

Went to the mall last night. The interior was beautifully designed with lots of art work. The mall space and layout felt like one of those low cost no frills airports in Europe or Asia, but very well decked out. Everything else defies logic, especially the location of it, and how it defines the environmentally-damaging urban sprawl of North America. Quite breathtaking walking in it I have to say. Saw a couple of old folks, probably from the community across the highway walking round and round it like threading on a neighbourhood synthetic rubber track in a stadium: Excellent idea, considering how crappy the weather was last night. Spent close to 2 hours inside it but managed to cover just half the mall. Ventilation in the mall is also great and don't feel stuffy with bad air circulation like places such as Metrotown, which should overhaul their HVAC system. The Bass Pro Shop, as pointed out by Klazu, is a must-see. It's like the theme park/museum that Vancouver never got.

[Klazu]

Somewhat interesting piece of information from the mall's website, especially the highlighted part.

Tsawwassen First Nation (TFN) Urban Treaty determines the sales tax exemption for Native Status Card Holders and it does not apply at Tsawwassen Mills.

Under the Tsawwassen First Nations Final Agreement, the sales tax exemption is applicable only on the former Reserve. The lands on which Tsawwassen Mills is developed, was property of the Crown added to Tsawwassen Lands at a later date and therefore not part of the original Reserve. Sales tax exemption for TFN members and other status Indians does not apply.

Now, for larger items (such as vehicles and boats), retailers may be asked to make arrangements whereby they deliver the product and exchange funds on Tsawwassen Lands that was formerly the reserve (just across Salish Sea Way). On those lands, they would get the exemption.

Reference: Chapter 20, clauses 16-20, of the Tsawwassen First Nation Final Agreement. http://www.tsawwassenfirstnation.com/pdf...wwassen_First_Nation_Final_Agreement.PDF

[Millennium2002]

A few thoughts:

1. The TFN lands were included in the "urban zone" of the last Regional Growth Strategy (2011). Thus the mall is fair game in that sense.

2. Nothing in the regional growth strategy dictates that everything should be high-density. IIRC the form and type of development are all just recommendations, and have been since its inception.

2. We can keep fighting about the mall and how it runs counter to the Regional Growth Strategy and all that sort of fun stuff... but it's already been built...

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Vin

Went to the mall last night. The interior was beautifully designed with lots of art work. The mall space and layout felt like one of those low cost no frills airports in Europe or Asia, but very well decked out. Everything else defies logic, especially the location of it, and how it defines the environmentally-damaging urban sprawl of North America. Quite breathtaking walking in it I have to say. Saw a couple of old folks, probably from the community across the highway walking round and round it like threading on a neighbourhood synthetic rubber track in a stadium: Excellent idea, considering how crappy the weather was last night. Spent close to 2 hours inside it but managed to cover just half the mall. Ventilation in the mall is also great and don't feel stuffy with bad air circulation like places such as Metrotown, which should overhaul their HVAC system. The Bass Pro Shop, as pointed out by Klazu, is a must-see. It's like the theme park/museum that Vancouver never got.

A bit off topic but actually a lot of people do that in other malls. I know for example my wife, when she was on mat. leave, would go with some of the other new mothers to Guildford prior to opening and just walk around the mall for an hour for exercise. It is safe, covered, and a bit of a circuit to do.

People do the same in Metrotown.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by jhausner

A bit off topic but actually a lot of people do that in other malls. I know for example my wife, when she was on mat. leave, would go with some of the other new mothers to Guildford prior to opening and just walk around the mall for an hour for exercise. It is safe, covered, and a bit of a circuit to do.

People do the same in Metrotown.

Well, they were pretty obvious: all decked out with sweat suits, jogging shoes and the lady had a head band on. Mall AKA indoor track-and-field indeed.

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

A few thoughts:

1. The TFN lands were included in the "urban zone" of the last Regional Growth Strategy (2011). Thus the mall is fair game in that sense.

2. Nothing in the regional growth strategy dictates that everything should be high-density. IIRC the form and type of development are all just recommendations, and have been since its inception.

2. We can keep fighting about the mall and how it runs counter to the Regional Growth Strategy and all that sort of fun stuff... but it's already been built...

If it's a success, others like that could be built in Abbotsford, Chilliwack, etc. That's a no-no.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by jhausner

A bit off topic but actually a lot of people do that in other malls. I know for example my wife, when she was on mat. leave, would go with some of the other new mothers to Guildford prior to opening and just walk around the mall for an hour for exercise. It is safe, covered, and a bit of a circuit to do.

People do the same in Metrotown.

richmond center they do ti chi

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Somewhat interesting piece of information from the mall's website, especially the highlighted part.

thats weird cause Park Royal South got tax exepmtion despite not being reserve land previously, as well as the RCSS in north vancouver is also Tax Exempt

[NewfBC]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

thats weird cause Park Royal South got tax exepmtion despite not being reserve land previously, as well as the RCSS in north vancouver is also Tax Exempt

I don't think it's weird at all... it's explained pretty well on the link provided.

Ron.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by Vin

If it's a success, others like that could be built in Abbotsford, Chilliwack, etc. That's a no-no.

The regional growth plan is up to the individual cities to enforce... the region only offers a guideline for others to follow, and apart from denying the projects regional services there are no enforcement powers... It is really only meant to be a cooperative body for sharing region-wide services, not as an additional layer of government. In fact the Tsawwassen First Nation bypassed the infrastructure constraints completely by building their own sewer system to compensate.

Given that you referred to Abbotsford and Chilliwack, you should know that Metro Vancouver has no bearing on what the Fraser Valley Regional District or other regions can issue as planning guidance apart from only merely persuasive influence. And yes, such influence might have taken a hit with this new mall, but people should realize that the mall's development is connected to the treaty settlement, and is not some misguided outlier by a well-established suburban city.

Finally, I find it weird that we're criticizing this mall and yet there's been no mention of the new Wal-Mart that they opened up on prime Chilliwack farmland some time ago... Heck, Richmond just saw another strip mall with its first Wal-Mart open up this month... hmm...

[s211]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

thats weird cause Park Royal South got tax exepmtion despite not being reserve land previously

Hmmmm... I was pretty sure it was reserve land before Park Royal South was built. Park Royal Towers on the north side is a land lease from the band also, IIRC.

[SpongeG]

i know but they only relatively recently started doing the tax exemption thing there in a land claim deal with the first nation and they threw in superstore in north vancouver

[SpongeG]

an article in the salish sea sentinel about the mall with some details about the artwork etc.

http://salishseasentinel.ca/2016/10/that-coast-salish-feeling-reconciliation-in-action/

From floor to ceiling, artworks from Tsawwassen First Nation people are on display to the thousands of shoppers visiting the newly-opened megamall.

When the doors at Tsawwassen Mills swung open in early October, it marked the end of four years of planning, site preparation and construction. The destination mall sits on land acquired when the nation signed BC’s first urban treaty in 2009. Next year, on nearby lands, a big-box-store complex will open for business.

Yes, there are taxes

First Nations shoppers at Tsawwassen Mills will not have the usual tax exemptions for those who carry status cards when shopping on reserve lands.

When Tsawwassen First Nation signed its treaty in 2009, it was no longer a reserve and the nation stopped following Indian Act regulations.

Nation members were allowed, under treaty, to make an application for tax exemption in order to become familiar with changes.

But all those exemptions for income and property taxes for members will end in 2021.

[SpongeG]

if you still haven't seen it video is better than pictures

• Video Link

[WarrenC12]

Went to the Mills mall last night for some Christmas shopping. I wasn't sure what to expect, other malls like Metrotown would have been a gong show. It was basically a ghost town. Not empty, but more like what you'd expect the old Brentwood mall to be on a random Wednesday night in March. Many stores had no customers, and I was the only one in a few stores I had to hit.

An interesting high/low mix of stores... Saks Fifth Ave and Winners? Luxury car rentals and Shoppers Drug Mart?

I went there chasing a toy for my son, and they had tons of stock where other places were sold out quickly, we called around earlier in the day. One thing a clerk mentioned to me was that they tried to cluster stores together with similar themes, for example the kids' stores are close together. I'm not sure if there's truth to that or just happened that was for one area.

They do a decent job of covering up the empty store fronts, and they are spread out so the mall feels relatively full of shops. The food court seating area was huge, or felt huge with so many empty tables.

If you've seen similar malls in the US it will feel very familiar.

Getting out of the parking lot was a pain in the ass, but since it wasn't very busy it was fine. I can imagine with a full parking lot it would be insane. It seems like 80% of the "driveways" from the outside roads into the parking lots are one way only, and you have to drive all the way around the mall to find the one that exits. A mix of poor design and poor signage IMO.

I'm not sure if this mall will survive, but if International Village can survive, I suppose anything is possible. With low land prices come low rents, and I imagine some stores can still turn a profit. There was definitely a mix of empty stores vs. those with decent customer traffic. I didn't get a chance to check out Bass Pro Shops as I was in a hurry, but will next time I'm out, which might not be until next Christmas.

[Marshal]

I was just visiting some people from Ladner and Tsawwassen, and they all said that it was never busy by any mall standards. They also said they felt most stores were understaffed.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by Marshal

I was just visiting some people from Ladner and Tsawwassen, and they all said that it was never busy by any mall standards. They also said they felt most stores were understaffed.

there is a good chunk of pop up stores just for christmas. So depending on the after boxing day numbers you may see a big change in stores. Many of the retailers that signed leases for long term got vary favorable rates so will do well. The mall definately has the yoga vibe covered with karma, lulu and a couple more pop up yoga stores.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Went to the Mills mall last night for some Christmas shopping. I wasn't sure what to expect, other malls like Metrotown would have been a gong show. It was basically a ghost town. Not empty, but more like what you'd expect the old Brentwood mall to be on a random Wednesday night in March. Many stores had no customers, and I was the only one in a few stores I had to hit.

An interesting high/low mix of stores... Saks Fifth Ave and Winners? Luxury car rentals and Shoppers Drug Mart?

I went there chasing a toy for my son, and they had tons of stock where other places were sold out quickly, we called around earlier in the day. One thing a clerk mentioned to me was that they tried to cluster stores together with similar themes, for example the kids' stores are close together. I'm not sure if there's truth to that or just happened that was for one area.

They do a decent job of covering up the empty store fronts, and they are spread out so the mall feels relatively full of shops. The food court seating area was huge, or felt huge with so many empty tables.

If you've seen similar malls in the US it will feel very familiar.

Getting out of the parking lot was a pain in the ass, but since it wasn't very busy it was fine. I can imagine with a full parking lot it would be insane. It seems like 80% of the "driveways" from the outside roads into the parking lots are one way only, and you have to drive all the way around the mall to find the one that exits. A mix of poor design and poor signage IMO.

I'm not sure if this mall will survive, but if International Village can survive, I suppose anything is possible. With low land prices come low rents, and I imagine some stores can still turn a profit. There was definitely a mix of empty stores vs. those with decent customer traffic. I didn't get a chance to check out Bass Pro Shops as I was in a hurry, but will next time I'm out, which might not be until next Christmas.

I was surprised at how quiet many shopping areas were on Dec 24 considering it was a Saturday. South Granville and downtown seemed very quiet.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I was surprised at how quiet many shopping areas were on Dec 24 considering it was a Saturday. South Granville and downtown seemed very quiet.

Even my elderly neighbours seem to buy everything on Amazon now so that may be a big part of it.

And I don't think Park Royal North is on reserve land... besides a weird triangular slice of the surface parking lot on the west side. Which is probably why it is parking lot.

The Park Royal North renos looked close to done last time I went by btw. If it is sunny I may go take some photos of a bunch of north shore stuff this week. Haven't done it in a long time.