SkyCity Centre Winnipeg | 45F | 575 Ft | 175.26 M | Cancelled

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Some would say that financial loss is a greater loss than whatever emotional coddling the SJW's are fighting for, ergo deserving of coverage.

Really? Have you read their articles or the many about Fortress and its various histories?


1. Correct, nothing appears criminal. However, unless I'm wrong (and I could be) the use of syndicated mortgages, while not exclusive to fortress, is not that common. Consider the other major projects going up... TNS has its own money, strategic partnerships and billionaire backings. Artis has its own money, and raises money publically if needed.

2. It doesn't need to be criminal to be highly questionable. You mention the "founders" of Fortress as if they're not the current active leaders of the company; they are. If this fails, their previous actions are ABSOLUTELY something to lean on. If I'm buying a car and Mercedes seems to have frequent brake problems.... not all, the odd model... Then I'm not buying a Mercedes and it's absolutely not my problem and entirely theirs. If I'm VW and I claim to be clean diesel and it turns out I'm not, I can be prepared for future buyer caution, even if VW starts manufacturing boats.

Fortress has in the past been financially shielded when a project went south.

3. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely want this project to go ahead, and I can guarantee you that the major players in real estate in Winnipeg do too... it's only a good marker for our market and brings people downtown! My only gripe sometimes is the ignorance to facts sometimes shown by some fans of this project. I too am a fan, but I won't deny the past.

4. For all its past "bad apples", Fortess has 100 good ones. They are capable.




1. You make a good point. Many don't understand the risk developers take on.
2. You forget a bigger point. In syndicated mortgages, investors are sometimes less protected, and certainly more ignorant to the goings on in the project than the developer. Ignorance costs money, and while it IS the investors sole responsibility, I don't fault CBC for alleviating some potential ignorance.
3. It's more important for people, especially investors, to be informed than for us to have another tower downtown.
4. Ironically, the CBC is a very biased and dopey purveyor of "information" often prone to being a political lapdog.

There's a lot more happening outside of Winnipeg. I already stated I wouldn't invest in a syndicated mortgage, ETFs, etc. Highly questionable doesn't make it criminal. If the CBC wishes to bring this to light than all be. I just don't understand how lazy people are with their money nowadays. It's so easy to look things up. Of course it reflects badly on Fortress should this project fail but, that's hardly proof of criminal intentions. Projects fail all the time with all sorts of financing formulas and people lose money. You think a REIT like Artis isn't high risk either in our bubble economy?

Fortress is acting developer for this one. They certainly have a lot more to lose than just a provider of debt financing.

[OakbluffMB]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

There's a lot more happening outside of Winnipeg. I already stated I wouldn't invest in a syndicated mortgage, ETFs, etc. Highly questionable doesn't make it criminal. If the CBC wishes to bring this to light than all be. I just don't understand how lazy people are with their money nowadays. It's so easy to look things up. Of course it reflects badly on Fortress should this project fail but, that's hardly proof of criminal intentions. Projects fail all the time with all sorts of financing formulas and people lose money. You think a REIT like Artis isn't high risk either in our bubble economy?

Fortress is acting developer for this one. They certainly have a lot more to lose than just a provider of debt financing.

I was very keen on buying a unit a SkyCity, as I have always wanted to live in a skyscraper. I discovered this thread and I got cold feet. I have done a lot of research on Fortress and would like to write about it here. Please excuse the errors if I'm not using the proper terms.

Fortress has 5 developments they are taking on by themselves, two are under construction, but moving very slowly - something to watch.

They have something like 15 more developments currently under construction in Canada and several completed where people that invested got their money back and a decent return - I have gotten into Twitter and they post the pictures all the time. CBC never provides this information. I have no problem with them reporting the bad stuff, but it would also be good reporting to let us know the full story. The media seems so one sided.

What I really don't understand is why they came to Winnipeg in the first place? Most of the developments I see on their website in the Toronto area seem in keeping with competitive developments in size. SkyCity is very big and expensive to build, I can't imagine a huge profit could be had, especially if they need to grant to make it feasible?

In terms of raising money by syndicated mortgages, I don't think coming here makes that any easier, why wouldn't you go to Vancouver or Montreal if you wanted to access new avenues for raising money? Not like there's hundred of millionaires here.

Anyway, looks to me like the journalist from CBC has some type of vendetta, trying to make her name by exposing the seedy underbelly of real estate. I went to an event at the sales office, everything was very professional and nobody tried to sell me any type of real estate investment.

If Fortress adds a developer partner, like most of their successful Toronto developments have, I would consider purchasing again. EllisDon is a good start. Should be interesting.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I already stated I wouldn't invest in a syndicated mortgage, ETFs, etc.

How exactly are ETFs anywhere close to the sketchiness of syndicated mortgages?

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by OakbluffMB

In terms of raising money by syndicated mortgages, I don't think coming here makes that any easier, why wouldn't you go to Vancouver or Montreal if you wanted to access new avenues for raising money? Not like there's hundred of millionaires here.

You might be surprised to know how many millionaires are in Winnipeg.

Most live completely under the radar in modest homes driving modest cars.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by h0twired

How exactly are ETFs anywhere close to the sketchiness of syndicated mortgages?

I was wondering the same thing.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

I would say it's likely the residential tower would have 3 elevators on its own. Then another 2-3 for the podium. This is just me spit balling. Not sure what the regulations are.

I'd expect atleast 4.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

There's a lot more happening outside of Winnipeg. I already stated I wouldn't invest in a syndicated mortgage, ETFs, etc. Highly questionable doesn't make it criminal. If the CBC wishes to bring this to light than all be. I just don't understand how lazy people are with their money nowadays. It's so easy to look things up. Of course it reflects badly on Fortress should this project fail but, that's hardly proof of criminal intentions. Projects fail all the time with all sorts of financing formulas and people lose money. You think a REIT like Artis isn't high risk either in our bubble economy?

Fortress is acting developer for this one. They certainly have a lot more to lose than just a provider of debt financing.

Lol, I already said "highly questionable" doesn't make it criminal. If I walked into their office to invest money, would they get my sale with a wry smile and "well, questionable ain't necessarily illegal ".....?

I hear you, it's surprising how many people are lazy with their money, but are you one to comment when you are comparing syndicated mortgages to ETFs and REITs? That's borderline insane, as the latter two are infinitely safer investments.

Since you brought up Artis, they've been one of the best run REITs in Canada for the last 10+ years. Their performance has been exceptional, and Fortress almost went to jail.....

Originally Posted by h0twired

How exactly are ETFs anywhere close to the sketchiness of syndicated mortgages?

.

[buzzg]

Syndicated mortgages are way more strictly regulated here (if not banned) than in Ontario, so there's no reason for them to push them at all in MB.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by h0twired

You might be surprised to know how many millionaires are in Winnipeg.

Most live completely under the radar in modest homes driving modest cars.

winnipegs got money floating around fair bit of it. theres allot of trust fund wealth here to... just sits there doing allot of nothing

[Finessing]

Originally Posted by OakbluffMB

I was very keen on buying a unit a SkyCity, as I have always wanted to live in a skyscraper. I discovered this thread and I got cold feet. I have done a lot of research on Fortress and would like to write about it here. Please excuse the errors if I'm not using the proper terms.

Fortress has 5 developments they are taking on by themselves, two are under construction, but moving very slowly - something to watch.

They have something like 15 more developments currently under construction in Canada and several completed where people that invested got their money back and a decent return - I have gotten into Twitter and they post the pictures all the time. CBC never provides this information. I have no problem with them reporting the bad stuff, but it would also be good reporting to let us know the full story. The media seems so one sided.

What I really don't understand is why they came to Winnipeg in the first place? Most of the developments I see on their website in the Toronto area seem in keeping with competitive developments in size. SkyCity is very big and expensive to build, I can't imagine a huge profit could be had, especially if they need to grant to make it feasible?

In terms of raising money by syndicated mortgages, I don't think coming here makes that any easier, why wouldn't you go to Vancouver or Montreal if you wanted to access new avenues for raising money? Not like there's hundred of millionaires here.

Anyway, looks to me like the journalist from CBC has some type of vendetta, trying to make her name by exposing the seedy underbelly of real estate. I went to an event at the sales office, everything was very professional and nobody tried to sell me any type of real estate investment.

If Fortress adds a developer partner, like most of their successful Toronto developments have, I would consider purchasing again. EllisDon is a good start. Should be interesting.

Jawad Rathore and Vince Petrozza have both been caught defrauding investors. Why on earth would you think they decided to change their ways now, especially given the hard evidence that shows that they are up to their old tricks again? Read the lawsuit against them. It very accurately describes the many issues with their "investments".

If Bernie Madoff started selling syndicated mortgages, would you jump on that investment? There are literally thousands of honest folks in Canada who work in the investment industry. Why work with people who are proven crooks? It makes no sense.

[NK59]

Originally Posted by Finessing

Jawad Rathore and Vince Petrozza have both been caught defrauding investors. Why on earth would you think they decided to change their ways now, especially given the hard evidence that shows that they are up to their old tricks again? Read the lawsuit against them. It very accurately describes the many issues with their "investments".

If Bernie Madoff started selling syndicated mortgages, would you jump on that investment? There are literally thousands of honest folks in Canada who work in the investment industry. Why work with people who are proven crooks? It makes no sense.

I would imagine that most who "invested/purchased" in Sky City do not know the history of these guys, and of the ones that do they must have weighed the risk/reward potential of this and proceeded anyways?

[optimusREIM]

At this point in the game it's in everyone's interests (at least those directly involved) to have this proceed in a timely fashion.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by h0twired

How exactly are ETFs anywhere close to the sketchiness of syndicated mortgages?

Some types certainly are.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

I'd expect atleast 4.


Lol, I already said "highly questionable" doesn't make it criminal. If I walked into their office to invest money, would they get my sale with a wry smile and "well, questionable ain't necessarily illegal ".....?

I hear you, it's surprising how many people are lazy with their money, but are you one to comment when you are comparing syndicated mortgages to ETFs and REITs? That's borderline insane, as the latter two are infinitely safer investments.

Since you brought up Artis, they've been one of the best run REITs in Canada for the last 10+ years. Their performance has been exceptional, and Fortress almost went to jail.....





.

First, I didn't say a REIT isn't sounder and pays better but, with our bloated real estate values, they aren't immune to going bust very quickly. Second, there are high risk ETFs run by amateurs "con man" that tend to attract the ignorant through greed that make their money on service charges. The "guaranteed " returns are never what they appear to be. Artis has been one of the top performing REITs because they heavily invested in Alberta. That doesn't help them at all right now.

No, Fortress didn't almost go to jail. You need to make that separation because the founders are far from the only con artists that have made the transition to real estate investment.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

First, I didn't say a REIT isn't sounder and pays better but, with our bloated real estate values, they aren't immune to going bust very quickly. Second, there are high risk ETFs run by amateurs "con man" that tend to attract the ignorant through greed that make their money on service charges. The "guaranteed " returns are never what they appear to be. Artis has been one of the top performing REITs because they heavily invested in Alberta. That doesn't help them at all right now.

Now you are bringing REITs into this?

I think you are getting your terminologies mixed up.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

First, I didn't say a REIT isn't sounder and pays better but, with our bloated real estate values, they aren't immune to going bust very quickly. Second, there are high risk ETFs run by amateurs "con man" that tend to attract the ignorant through greed that make their money on service charges. The "guaranteed " returns are never what they appear to be. Artis has been one of the top performing REITs because they heavily invested in Alberta. That doesn't help them at all right now.

No, Fortress didn't almost go to jail. You need to make that separation because the founders are far from the only con artists that have made the transition to real estate investment.

Real Estate, despite fears of "bubbles" remains the most sound investment vehicle these days (by and large).

Yes, there are shitty ETF's but to use ETF's as a whole to compare them to a known fraudster implies that ETF's as a whole are vehicles for scams. Far from true. There are other bad apples out there as nobody said Fortress founders are the only ones. They are, however, the only ones building a 44 story condo in downtown Winnipeg.

You keep mentioning "the founders of Fortress" as if they aren't around. They are very much around and actively leading and operating the company. For all intents and purposes, they are Fortress. Fortress "didn't almost" go to jail because they settled, but you know exactly what I mean. The lack of conviction in this case is almost as convincing as OJ's lack of conviction, or Shaggy's tagline ("It wasn't me").

Make no mistake, I want this project done and done well, but I'm surprised at some of the justifications given for Fortress history. They can build this thing squeaky clean and I and the city would love it.

Back to Artis. They started out as and "exclusively western Canadian REIT, with focus on Alberta," and marketed as such. So no surprises for investors. An unforseeable bubble, since you couldn't just find a curve and predict it, shredded Alberta. They adjusted their strategy and bounced back without lowering their dividend... I don't know if you know how huge that is...

They adjusted, acquired massive amounts of US real estate, expanded into eastern Canada, and profited big time. ALberta gets kicked again, also totally unforseen with OPEC's surprise "free-market pricing" attempt to destroy any and all oil that wasn't Sausi or Russian. Artis adjusts, divesting from Alberta, and still run good properties out there. They've made amazing moves the entire time, not just "invested in Alberta"... Dundee for example got hit way harder.

Real Estate is profitable and stable, but nowhere does real estate promise to be a bond. Every investment is vulnerable in some way. I've been paying close attention and a lot of my TO colleagues are immensely impressed at the smart moves Artis has faced in an adversity that I'm not sure you understand.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by Flatland Metropolis

Just thought I would embed it here

Thanks for this Flatland..Added to the Highrise & Supertall Proposal Thread...

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=207325

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Real Estate, despite fears of "bubbles" remains the most sound investment vehicle these days (by and large).

Yes, there are shitty ETF's but to use ETF's as a whole to compare them to a known fraudster implies that ETF's as a whole are vehicles for scams. Far from true. There are other bad apples out there as nobody said Fortress founders are the only ones. They are, however, the only ones building a 44 story condo in downtown Winnipeg.

You keep mentioning "the founders of Fortress" as if they aren't around. They are very much around and actively leading and operating the company. For all intents and purposes, they are Fortress. Fortress "didn't almost" go to jail because they settled, but you know exactly what I mean. The lack of conviction in this case is almost as convincing as OJ's lack of conviction, or Shaggy's tagline ("It wasn't me").

Make no mistake, I want this project done and done well, but I'm surprised at some of the justifications given for Fortress history. They can build this thing squeaky clean and I and the city would love it.

Back to Artis. They started out as and "exclusively western Canadian REIT, with focus on Alberta," and marketed as such. So no surprises for investors. An unforseeable bubble, since you couldn't just find a curve and predict it, shredded Alberta. They adjusted their strategy and bounced back without lowering their dividend... I don't know if you know how huge that is...

They adjusted, acquired massive amounts of US real estate, expanded into eastern Canada, and profited big time. ALberta gets kicked again, also totally unforseen with OPEC's surprise "free-market pricing" attempt to destroy any and all oil that wasn't Sausi or Russian. Artis adjusts, divesting from Alberta, and still run good properties out there. They've made amazing moves the entire time, not just "invested in Alberta"... Dundee for example got hit way harder.

Real Estate is profitable and stable, but nowhere does real estate promise to be a bond. Every investment is vulnerable in some way. I've been paying close attention and a lot of my TO colleagues are immensely impressed at the smart moves Artis has faced in an adversity that I'm not sure you understand.

Oh for pete's sake. I didn't use ETFs as a whole. I used ETFs as an example to the tactics used by syndicated mortgages to downplay the associated risk. Same with REITs that have a history of crashing and burning when the cycle reverses. Even now there are one or two on the brink with their assets running deficits. I may have said Artis but, it's shouldn't have been taken literally.

Your the one that view syndicated mortgages as a whole as a scam and so to Fortress because of the past histories of the founders. In no way should that be overlooked to an investor as there histories show they only care about themselves however, there is very little that suggests Fortress isn't legitimate. Investment is full of legitimate businesses run by former scam artists. The guys from Fortress were actually caught so they weren't very good at scamming either.

I saw this development in the Canadian section and come for an update. Not sure why I got into this.

[Finessing]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Oh for pete's sake. I didn't use ETFs as a whole. I used ETFs as an example to the tactics used by syndicated mortgages to downplay the associated risk. Same with REITs that have a history of crashing and burning when the cycle reverses. Even now there are one or two on the brink with their assets running deficits. I may have said Artis but, it's shouldn't have been taken literally.

Wtf?

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Your the one that view syndicated mortgages as a whole as a scam and so to Fortress because of the past histories of the founders. In no way should that be overlooked to an investor as there histories show they only care about themselves however, there is very little that suggests Fortress isn't legitimate.

There are multiple lawsuits against them and multiple people have explained very clearly why it isn't "legitimate". Simply ignoring the evidence doesn't make it go away.

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Investment is full of legitimate businesses run by former scam artists. The guys from Fortress were actually caught so they weren't very good at scamming either.

What are you even talking about?

There aren't tons of legit investment companies run by former scam artists. That is an absurd statement. Why would anybody entrust their hard-earned money with a proven scammer?

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Oh for pete's sake. I didn't use ETFs as a whole. I used ETFs as an example to the tactics used by syndicated mortgages to downplay the associated risk. Same with REITs that have a history of crashing and burning when the cycle reverses. Even now there are one or two on the brink with their assets running deficits. I may have said Artis but, it's shouldn't have been taken literally.

Your the one that view syndicated mortgages as a whole as a scam and so to Fortress because of the past histories of the founders. In no way should that be overlooked to an investor as there histories show they only care about themselves however, there is very little that suggests Fortress isn't legitimate. Investment is full of legitimate businesses run by former scam artists. The guys from Fortress were actually caught so they weren't very good at scamming either.

I saw this development in the Canadian section and come for an update. Not sure why I got into this.

You mention them by name but I took it too literally? In fairness, I probably came across too absolute on syndicated mortgages. They are not bad. But they don't seem great with Fortress.

To clarify, Fortress is totally legit, but not necessarily trustworthy. They've paid their settlement, are playing within the rules set to them, and have many successful development.

[HomeInMyShoes]

They have a big hole on Regina. Although nowhere near the five floors it is supposed to be. I'd be wary as an investor especially for timeliness.