Salt Lake Transit News Thread - Page 352

ImaJem · #**7021** Posted **Oct 6, 2016, 7:23 PM**

Thanks for the feedback! The idea came to me as I was looking at your map, I thought there has to be a way to make each location instantly recognizable. I had noticed the changes on the interactive map in the latest post, but I started making them just before (I'm certainly a fan of that post

)
It actually wasn't too hard to design the icons, the hardest part was saving all of the PNG's and PDF files (and getting the settings wrong half the time...)
You can absolutely use them for whatever purpose you need, and I would love to help out in this cause (I just hope our politicians will listen.)
These colors aren't final, I have a tool to check if a design is color-blind friendly and the V W C and U icons are the same color...
I'm not exactly a cartographer, but I'll certainly try to help with maps, I have adobe illustrator after all...
Anyway, I hope the blog works out and I hope UTA, MAG, etc. gets it together!

s.p.hansen · #**7022** Posted **Oct 14, 2016, 7:33 PM**

I know something that UTA and Salt Lake City could do to get more people (especially millennials) to buy the HIVE Pass. They could make it come up on your credit card bill the same way a UTA ticket or paid parking does.

On my Chase Sapphire Reserve card I get a $300 travel credit that I could have used to buy 7 months on a HIVE pass all reimbursed by the credit card. Instead I'll be using it on my parking garage costs for 4 months.

Right now if I ride Uber, Lyft, rent a car, pay for city parking, pay for my parking garage, or buy any UTA ticket it comes up as a transportation cost and I get the money taken off my credit card bill.

The Hive Pass comes up as a Public Utilities bill.

Cirrus · #**7023** Posted **Oct 18, 2016, 4:13 PM**

I assume you guys have seen this, but just in case:

SLC is updating its transit master plan and wants public feedback

They even have a "design your own transit system" online tool that's pretty fun.

Hatman · #**7024** Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 4:45 PM**

That tool seems very familiar. I think I've completed this survey before - but I did it again anyway. Can't ever speak up too much about transit improvements, eh?
The thing I've pushed for the most in these surveys is completing the infill TRAX station at 600 South and Main Street. I would benefit quite a bit if that station were open, and I think it would go a long way towards promoting TOD and mixed-use development in that area of the city. What say ye?

Makid · #**7025** Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 5:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatman

That tool seems very familiar. I think I've completed this survey before - but I did it again anyway. Can't ever speak up too much about transit improvements, eh?
The thing I've pushed for the most in these surveys is completing the infill TRAX station at 600 South and Main Street. I would benefit quite a bit if that station were open, and I think it would go a long way towards promoting TOD and mixed-use development in that area of the city. What say ye?

I like the idea. I also think having one an 7th South and West Temple would be good. It would further activate the area with the new growth and investment happening already. The School Improvement Network has taken possession of their building and this would provide additional incentives to more businesses and potential residential in the area.

Unfortunately, I don't think either the 6th South or 7th South stations are options until Trax is extended West from 7th South to 4th West and then North, creating the Outer Trax Loop. I don't think this is scheduled to happen until after the 4th South extension (Inner Loop) is completed.

I would love for both to happen at the same time though so that we could increase stations along the current line as well as expanding along the West Side of downtown.

I think the total cost for the Inner and Outer loops is between $70 and $90 Million depending on the final layout and design for the routes.

I think it is possible that if both were built, there would be a great return on the investment with developments along the lines.

My fantasy thought is that the Inner and Outer Loops are built at the same time as the Downtown and Granary streetcar lines are built. Total cost for this would be under $150 Million. About 2/3 of the Outer Loop Trax line would be used for the Granary streetcar anyway, so it would be worth building at the same time. The downtown streetcar would be needed to help get more people moving and further activate 2nd South.

Hatman · #**7026** Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 8:14 PM**

The reason I keep pushing the 600S and Main station in these surveys is that it is a planned infill station, just like 900 south was. The original TRAX line just had an open grassy spot and dead-end utility lines at the 900 South station location, just like the 600 South stop site has now. All they have to do is put the platform surface and shelters on it, plug in the electrical and water lines to the existing hookups, install the crosswalks, and they're done. A full new TRAX station for practically zero cost, when compared with moving the tracks and catenary wires to make space for the island platform, then adding in the utility pipes under the road and tracks, ect..

I like the idea of a station at 700 South and West Temple. It would keep the 'station on every other block' pattern for downtown consistent. I also think a station should go in on the university line between 4th and 5th east, just to keep that pattern going to (and for the obvious urban development reasons and yada yada).

Adding in stations at those locations would be extremely expensive, and probably won't be possible without some big project to replace/refresh all the track in those areas anyway.

ImaJem · #**7027** Posted **Oct 20, 2016, 8:55 PM**

Okay, I just thought I'd try making a map. I arranged it so 1inch = 1 block, which really helped with keeping everything to scale.
This is a screenshot of how it looks so far:

I've also uploaded it to the drive folder.
(here is the link again)

This is still a work in progress, it doesn't have any labels or stations (yet).

Thoughts?

Liberty Wellsian · #**7028** Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 5:18 AM**

Expanding Green Bike South into greater Salt lake via the Grid Phase 1

SLC- Station every 4 blocks south

9th ---- Trax Main 3rd 5th 9th 11th 13th

13th 3rd Trax Main 3rd 5th 9th 11th 13th

17th --------- Main 3rd 5th 9th 11th 13th

21st 3rd ----- Main 3rd 5th 9th 11th 13th

S-line ------------------ 5th 9th (Sugarhouse hot stops)

27th -------------------------9th 11th 13th

South Salt Lake- Station every six blocks south

21st Trax

S-line ------------- Main 3rd 5th

27th -------------- Main 3rd 5th

33rd ---------Trax Main 3rd 5th

39th 7th 5th Trax Main 3rd 5th

Makid · #**7029** Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 12:18 PM**

Salt Lake City invites feedback on transit master plan

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4484660-155/salt-lake-city-invites-feedback-on

Quote:

Salt Lake City officials invite residents to provide input on the capital's draft transit master plan.

The draft, developed over the past two years with input from thousands of residents and stakeholders, is available for review online at www.slcrides.org. A hard copy is also available for review at the Salt Lake City transportation division during regular business hours at 349 S. 200 East, Suite 150.

"This draft plan responds to the overwhelming feedback from our residents, who want convenient, accessible, reliable bus and rail transit," said Kevin Young, Salt Lake City's acting director of transportation. "The plan will guide our actions and partnership with [the Utah Transit Authority] to improve the local transit network, and to make it accessible for people of all ages and abilities in all neighborhoods. We encourage feedback from our residents so we can continue to customize the plan to better meet their needs."

The plan creates a 20-year vision and action guide for service, transit-supportive investments, programs and policies. It also includes a comprehensive look at the Salt Lake City's overall travel patterns and identifies places where transit would be used if it met the needs of potential riders.

The plan also identifies areas where transit improvements are needed for existing riders. Residents are encouraged to provide input via Open City Hall at http://www.slcgov.com/opencityhall. The review period is open until Nov. 7.

The links to the documents are below:

Executive Summary: http://slcrides.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/SLC-Transit-MP-Exec-Summ-DRAFT-10-18-2016.pdf

Draft Plan: http://slcrides.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/SLC-Transit-MP-DRAFT-10-18-2016.pdf

Hatman · #**7030** Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 3:24 PM**

Thanks for posting those links, Makid! This is big!

All I can say is wow, they've done their research. They've pulled in all the best examples of transit nationwide, including Huston's bus network redesign (even including the maps from the fantastic Citylab article) and Portland's "Frequent Service" branding. Also some looks at Minneapolis that may have confused the writers of the plan...

Sure, it looks almost exactly like FrontRunner at North Temple Station, but it is in fact a Minneapolis NorthStar commuter train at Target Field station, using UTA #12, which they bought from UTA before FrontRunner South was opened. Small quibble, but I've got to correct them on something!

I'm also struck by how non-aggressive this plan is. The plans for a streetcar on 200 South have been replaced with plans for a better bus service which is to be replaced with a streetcar eventually... maybe... I had been hoping for something more specific about the Sugarhouse Streetcar extensions, but there isn't anything said about that except that it's probably good to expand it. And while there are good plugs for the Black Line and for the 400 South TRAX extension, there's no date or goals or talk about funding or anything. Everything in this plan is supper chill and non-specific.
But the fundamentals are all right, so we've got a good foundation.

Last thought - though I know I should like the idea of fleshing out the bus service to more acceptable levels of service, I can't help but think of it being too little too late. Autonomous taxis are going to totally decimate bus systems worldwide when they arrive, and may even take down a few rail systems too if we're not careful. Big transit projects like streetcars and TRAX and BRT and FrontRunner upgrades are still a worthy endeavor in the face of autonomous taxis, but softer routes like bus plus and local shelters and low-density routes are not long for this world.
And I mention this mainly because its coming faster than many people think. What with the Tesla announcement of fully-autonomous car production beginning NOW (with software to be activated in steps beginning in December), it is becoming more likely that such autonomous taxi services will launch in 2018. And this transit plan, as good as it is, makes no mention of autonomous cars - and is setting itself up to be severely surprised.

Makid · #**7031** Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 4:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatman

Thanks for posting those links, Makid! This is big!

All I can say is wow, they've done their research. They've pulled in all the best examples of transit nationwide, including Huston's bus network redesign (even including the maps from the fantastic Citylab article) and Portland's "Frequent Service" branding. Also some looks at Minneapolis that may have confused the writers of the plan...

Sure, it looks almost exactly like FrontRunner at North Temple Station, but it is in fact a Minneapolis NorthStar commuter train at Target Field station, using UTA #12, which they bought from UTA before FrontRunner South was opened. Small quibble, but I've got to correct them on something!

I'm also struck by how non-aggressive this plan is. The plans for a streetcar on 200 South have been replaced with plans for a better bus service which is to be replaced with a streetcar eventually... maybe... I had been hoping for something more specific about the Sugarhouse Streetcar extensions, but there isn't anything said about that except that it's probably good to expand it. And while there are good plugs for the Black Line and for the 400 South TRAX extension, there's no date or goals or talk about funding or anything. Everything in this plan is supper chill and non-specific.
But the fundamentals are all right, so we've got a good foundation.

Last thought - though I know I should like the idea of fleshing out the bus service to more acceptable levels of service, I can't help but think of it being too little too late. Autonomous taxis are going to totally decimate bus systems worldwide when they arrive, and may even take down a few rail systems too if we're not careful. Big transit projects like streetcars and TRAX and BRT and FrontRunner upgrades are still a worthy endeavor in the face of autonomous taxis, but softer routes like bus plus and local shelters and low-density routes are not long for this world.
And I mention this mainly because its coming faster than many people think. What with the Tesla announcement of fully-autonomous car production beginning NOW (with software to be activated in steps beginning in December), it is becoming more likely that such autonomous taxi services will launch in 2018. And this transit plan, as good as it is, makes no mention of autonomous cars - and is setting itself up to be severely surprised.

I haven't yet read through the draft, I did go through the Executive Summary though. I am happy to see that there is a chance for better service along 600/700 North. More importantly, I have moved into the highest transit propensity census area along 6th North (Between 8th North and 6th North and 10th West and 12th West). I am less than 1/4 mile from 6th, the Smiths and more. So I am doing more walking (as much as I can).

I hope to get through the full draft later today.

I do think they added a bit about self driving vehicles with their first and last mile options.

Hatman · #**7032** Posted **Oct 21, 2016, 4:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makid

I do think they added a bit about self driving vehicles with their first and last mile options.

If they did, it wasn't enough to for me to find with my search function.

I hear this a lot among the true transit believers, that autonomous cars will solve the first-last mile problem. I think this is only accurate if you can add in a single word: "or". As in, autonomous cars will solve the first or last mile problem, in that people will get to the transit station from their house and ride the transit into downtown, where the transit will be expected to take them within walking distance of their destination. And when they go home, they will take Transit from their destination to their suburb, where their car will come to pick them up again. To imagine that people will take a taxi to a transit station, use it to get downtown, and then grab another taxi to get to their real destination - and then do it all in reverse on the way home - is asking far too much of people.
This is why I'm of the mind that transit in the suburbs is going to become extinct. The only function that transit will retain will be the one it was originally intended for - the commute into downtown. providing stops up and down rural arterial roads (like the 5600 West proposal) will not be competitive with taxis because there won't ever be the requisite density along that corridor. Salt Lake City's downtown, should the parking lots get filled in and a robust streetcar network return, will just barely have the density needed to justify having TRAX and FrontRunner feeding people into downtown.
And the huge problem is that the plan calls for a 'grid' system, not a 'hub and spoke' system. Which is fine for using soft systems like 'bus plus' and local buses to get around town. but it isn't so great for getting people from the rail systems to downtown destinations.
So, not that anyone has disagreed, but I stand by my assessment of the plan: good and fundamentals-based plan if only transit best practices are considered, but with no effort to future-proof in the face of changing trends and technology.

Stenar · #**7033** Posted **Oct 22, 2016, 12:10 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatman

...

To imagine that people will take a taxi to a transit station, use it to get downtown, and then grab another taxi to get to their real destination - and then do it all in reverse on the way home - is asking far too much of people.[/I]

People won't be taking a taxi, per se, they'll pay for a car subscription—with a cost lower than the monthly cost of owning/maintaining and fueling their own car—which will take them wherever they need to go.

Wasatch Wasteland · #**7034** Posted **Oct 22, 2016, 1:14 AM**

I don't know if you noticed in the draft plan, but it seems that they do plan on opening a "black line" in the near future. Also, it appears they plan on Trax breaking off at 9th south and going up 4th west to Central Station as an "Outer Downtown Trax loop" I thought that this route was going to part of the future streetcar network? When did this change?

ImaJem · #**7035** Posted **Oct 23, 2016, 2:28 AM**

Here is an update to my map. (and update to drive folder)
I decided to incorporate the "destination" markers I made before.
Later, I'm gonna put in a Legend (or is that necessary?)

Questions? Advice?
I'm still deciding what to do with the pioneer park label. Is it weird to have it said twice?

I really wish Salt Lake and UTA will hurry up with the 4th south extension, and the outer loop!
I think TRAX and the Streetcar are supposed to share tracks for some of the journey.

(Eco)nomy_404 · #**7036** Posted **Oct 23, 2016, 4:25 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImaJem

Okay, I just thought I'd try making a map. I arranged it so 1inch = 1 block, which really helped with keeping everything to scale.
This is a screenshot of how it looks so far:

I've also uploaded it to the drive folder.
(here is the link again)

This is still a work in progress, it doesn't have any labels or stations (yet).

Thoughts?

I don't think any of the grey would make much sense. I like the red minus the stretch on 400 S between Main and 400 W. I envision the Green Line following its existing track down Main with the Blue Line following the red track on your map southward to meet up with the 900 S Station via 700 S from the west. Having the Green Line crossing downtown east-to-west on So. Temple and the Blue Line doing so down 700 S, the 400 S option would seem redundant. The 700 S alignment would spur much-needed development on the south end of town. A circulator could then be put in to loop downtown along So. Temple, Main, 700 S, and 400 W. Not only would this alignment be efficient, it would be cost-effective since much of the track is already laid. Just need to add about a mile of new track to bridge the Hub with 900 S.

Hatman · #**7037** Posted **Oct 24, 2016, 3:38 PM**

I like that map! And I like the little destination markers! I am impressed by your cartography skills.

I've forgotten what 'L' stands for. Is it Salt Lake Central, because the S is already used for Sugarhouse?

I particularly like how the street grid is shown as light gray and dotted lines that don't attract attention, but are there if you need them. I know UTA doesn't highlight individual locations on their maps, but I look at this map and start trying to fill things in on my own... light gray polygon shapes for certain convention centers, public plazas and tourist destinations, prominent hotels and malls and the like... I feel like that would be the most user friendly, even if UTA policies make it impossible.

Your map highlights for me that someday soon (by soon I mean as soon as we have any sort of downtown streetcar network) we will need two separate maps to understand our TRAX system - one for the downtown area and one for the non-downtown branch lines. Sort of the way Chicago does its 'loop' and non-loop sections of the 'L'. With TRAX cars running all over the city like that, it may be that TRAX becomes primarily a streetcar system with a secondary network of suburban branchlines, sort of like the TRAM-TRAIN lines in Germany and elsewhere in Europe. Heck, if you look up the Wikipedia page for Tram-Train, UTA TRAX is already cited as a North American example (owing to freight trains using the Red and Blue lines during the night).

That's a long way towards saying that downtown maps are probably going to become a much bigger deal, and I'm glad you've got started on this.

ImaJem · #**7038** Posted **Oct 24, 2016, 8:04 PM**

Just so everyone's on the same page here. This map doesn't show service patterns, but rather shows the "Destinations" which was an idea proposed by Hatman on his blog.
This is his map that shows this:

As for the grey (streetcar), I'm not sure if it makes sense or not, my goal was mostly to put a map together.
This is what my map is based off of:

If anyone has any other ideas (for a downtown only map) I will gladly make one for you free of charge.
Just fill out this form:
https://goo.gl/forms/tLubOcK3Idquu8zi2

Liberty Wellsian · #**7039** Posted **Oct 24, 2016, 11:55 PM**

It appears from the Masterplan that phase 1 of the Frequent Transit Network could be funded by a $3 Transportation Fee being tacked onto SLC utility bills. The TF would be a stable funding source. We should probably consider it.

ajiuO · #**7040** Posted **Oct 25, 2016, 4:26 AM**

I would honestly just like to see a simple trax expansion for the immediate future... I'm calling it the yellow line. UTA can call it whatever they want. It would only require adding six blocks of tracks and two stations... The 400 S. tracks would be extended all the way down to 400 W. where they would turn and then connect with the existing tracks along 400 W... The yellow line would go from the University of Utah to the airport... The stations are circled in blue... There should probably be one station right around Pioneer Park and another one between there and library station somewhere.

Then in the future I would like to see a street car that starts out on 500 W. behind Rio Grande... and then goes up 200 S... possibly terminating at trolley Square ... it could even be some sort of trolley themed train ... that would be kind of nifty.