Baseline Rd. Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) Project | Proposed

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Regarding the swooping right turns, it's probably because Baseline is a busy main/arterial street, and it's better for traffic flow. I would think that it's better for seeing cyclists with as well, because the turn angle is smoother.

I'm not certain of how this would be. The channelized right turns give a false sense of exclusivity to automobilists (similarly to a highway), which is not conducive to good awareness of other road users. And for pedestrians and cyclists, this means always looking out for fast-turning vehicles, wondering whether they might have the largesse to stop (or not). This could be solved by signalizing the right turn. But if you add a stoplight to it, there's little advantage to having it channelized.

What is the 3-3.2m standard and why is it safer to cyclists than 3.5m?

Lane widths are a careful balance between having just enough space to move about safely, but not so much space that you feel compelled to increase your speed. For a road that is meant to carry a lot of traffic, that point of equilibrium has been to shown to be between 3m and 3.2m. Anything less, and it becomes difficult for cars to manoeuvre and anything more and cars speed up.

Often, cyclists' safety is used as an argument for wider lanes. The evidence just simply does not back this up. Worse, the speed induced though wider lanes results in more serious accidents for cyclists. For streets with speeds of over 30 km/h, the only way to insure any measure of cyclist safety is separate infrastructure. There's no way around this simple reality. Of course, the point is moot on Baseline since there will be separate cycling infrastructure anyways.

Regarding the refuge islands, Baseline is already very tight for fitting in 2 bus lanes + 4 car lanes. Expropriation will be needed along stretches of Baseline, and can't go as far as inches from people's single family home's living room windows.

This is a valid point. However, it does not require additional space; If you look at almost all of the proposed intersections, you see that the medians on Baseline stop just shy of the crosswalks. Why not extend them so that they can also serve as refuges. It also causes left-turning cars to slow down just before the crosswalk instead of being able to turn a wider radius and higher speeds diagonally through it.


I hope that they also put in place some of the signal safety features used in a number of other cities, such as the 5-second advanced signal for pedestrians, cyclists and non-turning vehicles (which prevents cars from cutting off or turning onto people crossing) and pedestrian wait countdowns (which count down to the next green light as opposed to the next red). Baseline may very well end up establishing the blueprint for our post-war arterials all over the city, so let's try to make it something worth emulating!

[m0nkyman]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Is it Ontario-specific minimum?
One of the Vancouver main arterials has 2.75 width. A bit too extreme, but nonetheless, it's possible.

That stretch of Granville panics me every time I've driven it.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Catenary

Conversion to LRt was brought up last night. They say it is being designed with that in mind.

I could see the first half being built as BRT, then never building the second half as BRT but rather converting it all to LRT.

I hope you mean a grade separated LRT. Otherwise that's a terrible waste of money. Dedicated lane BRT has pretty much the same capacity as dedicated lane LRT.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

That stretch of Granville panics me every time I've driven it.

And that's what makes it safer than a normal arterial where it feels much less dangerous than it actually is. 2.75m is admittedly pretty narrow, but while narrow arterials usually result in more fender-benders and scuffs, arterials which are too wide usually result in fewer but deadlier incidents. And I'd rather 100 scuffs than 1 fatal crash.

[Buggys]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

I'm not certain of how this would be. The channelized right turns give a false sense of exclusivity to automobilists (similarly to a highway), which is not conducive to good awareness of other road users. And for pedestrians and cyclists, this means always looking out for fast-turning vehicles, wondering whether they might have the largesse to stop (or not). This could be solved by signalizing the right turn. But if you add a stoplight to it, there's little advantage to having it channelized.




Lane widths are a careful balance between having just enough space to move about safely, but not so much space that you feel compelled to increase your speed. For a road that is meant to carry a lot of traffic, that point of equilibrium has been to shown to be between 3m and 3.2m. Anything less, and it becomes difficult for cars to manoeuvre and anything more and cars speed up.

Often, cyclists' safety is used as an argument for wider lanes. The evidence just simply does not back this up. Worse, the speed induced though wider lanes results in more serious accidents for cyclists. For streets with speeds of over 30 km/h, the only way to insure any measure of cyclist safety is separate infrastructure. There's no way around this simple reality. Of course, the point is moot on Baseline since there will be separate cycling infrastructure anyways.



This is a valid point. However, it does not require additional space; If you look at almost all of the proposed intersections, you see that the medians on Baseline stop just shy of the crosswalks. Why not extend them so that they can also serve as refuges. It also causes left-turning cars to slow down just before the crosswalk instead of being able to turn a wider radius and higher speeds diagonally through it.


I hope that they also put in place some of the signal safety features used in a number of other cities, such as the 5-second advanced signal for pedestrians, cyclists and non-turning vehicles (which prevents cars from cutting off or turning onto people crossing) and pedestrian wait countdowns (which count down to the next green light as opposed to the next red). Baseline may very well end up establishing the blueprint for our post-war arterials all over the city, so let's try to make it something worth emulating!

Extending the islands might make it difficult for buses to turn, especially the long ones?

The advanced signals is a great idea.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

That stretch of Granville panics me every time I've driven it.

Haha me too. But the locals got used to it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

A few intersections (my phone sucks, so I borrowed these from @HansontheBike on twitter):

Thanks for that. I couldn't make it to the meeting. What route are they planning on using through Algonquin Collage? The pictures jump from the northern end of Baseline station to Navaho and Baseline Rd.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Buggys

Extending the islands might make it difficult for buses to turn, especially the long ones?

There is also the issue of keeping the crosswalks accessible for those in wheelchairs. You could put ramps on the islands in line with the crosswalks, but it is still an extra hurdle for those who want to just cross the street (ramps aren't as easy to overcome as flat pavement, especially if the ramp has a lip) and you loose much of the benefit of extending the island.

A better option would be to paint the island extension and install some type of barricade on the outer edge of the island (where turning buses isn't an issue) to prevent vehicles from cutting across the island extension.

Looking back at the maps, the islands that aren't extended into the crosswalk look to be too narrow to be safe refuges for pedestrians anyway.

[hwy418]

Originally Posted by m0nkyman

That stretch of Granville panics me every time I've driven it.

It's also Vancouver where snow is almost non-existent. In Ottawa, we need to worry about snow storage, especially when you have roads with multiple curbs/islands (i.e. median BRT).

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by hwy418

It's also Vancouver where snow is almost non-existent. In Ottawa, we need to worry about snow storage, especially when you have roads with multiple curbs/islands (i.e. median BRT).

Not only storage, but vehicles fishtailing within the lane when conditions are slipary. Make the lanes too narrow and you will see a lot more fender benders as vehicles slide out of their lanes and into the next.

For snow storage, you don't need a wider road; wide medians will also store snow well.

[1overcosc]

The 2.75m width used on Granville would not be safe for Ottawa winters.. but that said, we don't need to keep using 3.5m to achieve winter safety.

3.25m is probably the ideal width in a city of Ottawa's climate.

[rocketphish]

Residents raise concerns about Baseline Road bus transit corridor
The project proposes building designated bus lanes down the centre of Baseline Road from Heron to Bayshore

By: Melissa Murray, Metroland Media
Published on Tue Oct 11 2016

Residents attending a final consultation on the proposed Baseline Road bus rapid transit corridor had more concerns than praise for the project.

About 70 people attended a presentation about the Baseline Road bus corridor at the project’s final open house at the Nepean Sportsplex on Oct. 5.

The city is currently working on the planning and environmental assessment study for the corridor, which will be presented to the transportation committee early next year.

The project proposes building designated bus lanes down the centre of Baseline Road from Heron to Bayshore, as well as having four lanes for cars, 24 bus stations, separated cycle lanes, new sidewalks and multi-use pathways.

The project will be built in two phases – the goal for the first, from Baseline Station to Heron Station, is for it to be operational before 2031. The estimated cost is $161 million, but to move forward, the project relies on securing funding from provincial and federal partners. The second section is proposed for after 2031, but interim measures would be implemented, costing about $7 million.

If the project is built, Doug Warren, who lives near Baseline and Clyde Avenue, and his neighbours will have to make a U-turn at the intersection to get into their condo complex because the bus lanes would block access.

“It’s pure stupidity,” Warren said.

“You’re going to have 600 to 700 people doing U-turns everyday,” he said.

Limiting access by having the bus lanes in the middle of the road and promoting U-turns was also a problem for resident Colleen Barnes-Scrive.

“It’s very, very dangerous – you’re going to be killing people,” she said. She added emergency vehicles will have a harder time navigating the new bus lanes.

There were also concerns raised about who was informed of the meeting.

Sue Paul, who lives near Baseline and Fisher, said she was one of only a few neighbours who received notice of the meeting. She said some didn’t even know about the proposed project even though consultations began in April 2012.

“You’re dropping this into our neighbourhood and not contacting us about it,” she said.

Before the meeting, River Ward Coun. Riley Brockington expressed similar apprehensions about the project.

“My frustration is few people know about this,” he said.

The plan was initially introduced through the transportation master plan that came out in 2013, but the last consultation was about two years ago.

“Overall I am supportive of the project, but people need to be aware that there’s a major road project being considered for Baseline. It’s going to change the look and feel of the road,” he said. “I am not opposed to the project. It’s (that) the profile has come off the radar. We’ve got to restart the motorboat here.”

Paul’s property backs onto Baseline and she’s concerned about the city expropriating some of her land, and declining property values because of noise pollution and smog.

With some land being taken from the Central Experimental Farm in order to accommodate the project, she said the plans are another example of how governments are trying to develop the farm. There’s a plan for a 15-metre buffer strip along the farm’s frontage to protect against wind, erosion, snow and salt spray.

Several residents also raised questions about snow removal, not only on the street, bus and bike lanes, but also where residents would put snow shovelled from their driveways if land is expropriated from their properties for the project. Jabbar Siddique, a city senior project engineer, said logistics will have to be worked out, but the route might need more regular snow removal and not just plowing.

In total 173 residential properties will be affected by the project: 15 will be required in full, 44 commercial properties will also be affected, as well as 10 federal and provincial properties.

Ken LaRose, who lives near Baseline and Southwood Drive, will have a corner taken from his property when the corridor is built. He wanted to know when discussions about acquisition would start. “I don’t want my kids having to argue with you people,” he said.

But negotiations won’t begin until funding for the project is secured.

The new route is supposed to shave up to 11 minutes of commute time off in each direction. More than 10,000 riders per day are expected to use the corridor once built, according to city documents.

– With files from Erin McCracken

http://www.metronews.ca/news/ottawa/2016...about-baseline-bus-transit-corridor.html

[Capital Shaun]

Many people really don't like change.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

If the project is built, Doug Warren, who lives near Baseline and Clyde Avenue, and his neighbours will have to make a U-turn at the intersection to get into their condo complex because the bus lanes would block access.

“It’s pure stupidity,” Warren said.

“You’re going to have 600 to 700 people doing U-turns everyday,” he said.

Limiting access by having the bus lanes in the middle of the road and promoting U-turns was also a problem for resident Colleen Barnes-Scrive.

“It’s very, very dangerous – you’re going to be killing people,” she said. She added emergency vehicles will have a harder time navigating the new bus lanes.

Baseline is too busy a road to allow left turns into driveways and side streets regardless of BRT. I would argue that a wide U-turn from a dedicated left turn lane on an advanced green is much safer than making a left turn at an uncontrolled intersection. Besides, with a bit of planning, you can often avoid the U-Turn all together by changing your route.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

Paul’s property backs onto Baseline and she’s concerned about the city expropriating some of her land, and declining property values because of noise pollution and smog.

My response to this is not fit for a family message board.

[zzptichka]

"Noise, pollution and smog" LMAO
That's what you'd get if you don't build efficient rapid transit and continue living with a congested 6-lane highway on your doorstep 15 years from now.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

[B][SIZE="4"]Paul’s property backs onto Baseline and she’s concerned about the city expropriating some of her land, and declining property values because of noise pollution and smog.

Ms. Paul will benefit because the noisy diesel buses currently running behind her house will be running farther away from her home in the future, given they will be in the median lane vs. the curb lane.

And the improvement to transit service and cycling mobility may actually increase her property values.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Ms. Paul will benefit because the noisy diesel buses currently running behind her house will be running farther away from her home in the future, given they will be in the median lane vs. the curb lane.

My hope is most of the noisy diesel buses will be converted to quiet electric ones.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Ms. Paul will benefit because the noisy diesel buses currently running behind her house will be running farther away from her home in the future, given they will be in the median lane vs. the curb lane.

And the improvement to transit service and cycling mobility may actually increase her property values.

I was at the open house and was disappointed city staff couldn't explain that and address all other concerns to her and other people. As if they didn't understand that themselves or something. I felt the urge to take the microphone and do that myself.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by rocketphish

“You’re going to have 600 to 700 people doing U-turns everyday,” he said.


The new route is supposed to shave up to 11 minutes of commute time off in each direction. More than 10,000 riders per day are expected to use the corridor once built, according to city documents.

10,000 > 700 is it not? I am all for this project.

I feel like more traffic would be affected turning left into the Agriculture HQ buildings at Merivale/Baseline across from Loblaws than these condos.