Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

I thought I read there was supposed to be a vote on the Bow Tunnel on Monday? Did Council run long last night?

I can't find anything on the herald website....

Council did indeed run long due to the Harvest Hills golf course debate.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Does anyone know if there are plans to speed the 302 bus route as they build the LRT? Initial plans were that the 302 was supposed to shave 10 minutes off the route between downtown and Douglas Glen as part of the BRT improvement plan - when the LRT was fast tracked, were all of the BRT improvements removed from the scope? The 302 bus route doesn't really feel very 'express' at the moment!

Some improvements might still come, like intersection skips. Otherwise, no, as the LRT ROW and the BRT ROW are one and the same.

[evolv]

They are/were doing soil testing at 2nd St and 8th Ave today. I assume this would be for the tunnel.

[Wooster]

They voted 10-3 in favour of the tunnel option. That's the basis by which they proceed. However, I understand cost estimates have jumped quite a bit as they've gone into further and further detail. This is troubling from the point of view of funding, obviously. If it costs say $1 or $1.5 billion more, what do they do? Do they stage it? Do they try and build a cheaper option?

[MalcolmTucker]

They borrowed entirely for the airport tunnel without any plan to pay it back (unless the MSI envelope is done now). Why not for this? Just add more years to the property tax capital allocation.

[joe498]

Green Line closer to becoming reality

http://www.660news.com/2016/10/04/green-line-closer-becoming-reality/

City council has approved the Centre Street Green Line alignment option that would link the northern and southern segments through an underground tunnel.

At the center of the debate was the $1.95-billion dollar price tag.

The Green Line tunnel would begin at 16th Ave north to just south of the CP Rail tracks and feature three underground stations.

The cheapest option was $450-million less and would have seen the LRT travel over the existing Centre Street Bridge.

There is uncertainty around how the project will be funded, since higher levels of government have yet to voice a solid financial commitment.

A final decision, based on available funding dollars, is expected to be made in June of next year.

[LFRENCH]

Originally Posted by joe498

Green Line closer to becoming reality

http://www.660news.com/2016/10/04/green-line-closer-becoming-reality/

or $450 million further from reality..

[craner]

Thought the tunnel was starting at 24th Ave. N ??

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by craner

Thought the tunnel was starting at 24th Ave. N ??

Tunnel was originally planned to start at 24th Ave N and the $1.95 Billion cost factors that in however through the community TOD charrette engagement it's been recommended to push the tunnel portal as close to 16th Ave as possible and shift the 16th Ave station south so that it sits between 14th Ave and 16th Ave. This will generate some cost savings. Due to the 16th Ave station being shifted south there is now also a conversation happening about just how necessary the 9th Ave N station has become. A decision on that will be made in the spring but may deliver further cost savings

[Fuzz]

I hope they don't move the station to far from 16th. If they ever want 16th to be a useful transit corridor it is going to have to have easy access to the LRT. Ideally you could jump off the bus and walk directly down to it.

[dazzlingdave88]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Tunnel was originally planned to start at 24th Ave N and the $1.95 Billion cost factors that in however through the community TOD charrette engagement it's been recommended to push the tunnel portal as close to 16th Ave as possible and shift the 16th Ave station south so that it sits between 14th Ave and 16th Ave. This will generate some cost savings. Due to the 16th Ave station being shifted south there is now also a conversation happening about just how necessary the 9th Ave N station has become. A decision on that will be made in the spring but may deliver further cost savings

Would the 16 ave station be underground? I think if they push that station back we might lose an interesting opportunity of integrating any future development on the SE corner of 16 and centre.

[RicoLance21]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Tunnel was originally planned to start at 24th Ave N and the $1.95 Billion cost factors that in however through the community TOD charrette engagement it's been recommended to push the tunnel portal as close to 16th Ave as possible and shift the 16th Ave station south so that it sits between 14th Ave and 16th Ave. This will generate some cost savings. Due to the 16th Ave station being shifted south there is now also a conversation happening about just how necessary the 9th Ave N station has become. A decision on that will be made in the spring but may deliver further cost savings

I don't like this portal location. The best place for it should be just north of the 20 Avenue intersection where traffic dies off much more. Having only one lane on each direction just north of 16 Avenue would be a disaster.

[DoubleK]

What does 'in principle' mean?

They have the option of walking away if they don't like the price?

So did they basically say maybe?

[CalgaryAlex]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

What does 'in principle' mean?

They have the option of walking away if they don't like the price?

So did they basically say maybe?

Since they added that caveat, shouldn't they have also approved a second, lower-cost option or additional funding to push it through? It seems that after those two words were added, if the cost of the tunnel turns out to be over a certain threshold, the project will be delayed many months while council waits for another recommendation.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

What does 'in principle' mean?

They have the option of walking away if they don't like the price?

So did they basically say maybe?

Having watched the debate yesterday I would say it's less a maybe and more a probably. Almost all the Councillors agreed that the tunnel option was their first choice for the downtown option. That being said the tunnel option is $450 million more than the least expensive option. What the debate focused around is the belief that funding for the Green Line will be limited and the entire line won't be able to be built with the expected funding. The opinion of the majority of Councillors is that the Green Line is only worth doing if it can serve residents in the northern and southern suburbs on opening day. So although most Councillors believe the tunnel option is the way to go if that extra $450 million in cost means the Green Line can't be built out into the suburbs they want the ability to change their minds and sacrifice the downtown portion of the line for the sake of a further build out (essentially the same philosophy Calgary adopted in the 80s with the LRT). Adding the words "in principle" was seen as the way to give Council their out. It was also a way to send a message to the Province and Feds of 'this is what's best for Calgarians, this is what we want, but we need you to step up and fund it otherwise we're going to have to consider a less than ideal plan B'.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think council isn't used to funding projects where they need an agreement from the province anymore - it has been at least 15 years (since the Ralph Klein gas tax transfer) since most of the funds moved to be few to no strings. At the same time federal dollars were small enough and entirely fungible so it didn't really matter to have hard agreements in place for specific projects, as long as there was an understanding of the total envelope. So they are being more skittish.

Whatever, it won't change any result, and it got the vote passed.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Whatever, it won't change any result, and it got the vote passed.

My thoughts exactly

[craner]

Originally Posted by RicoLance21

I don't like this portal location. The best place for it should be just north of the 20 Avenue intersection where traffic dies off much more. Having only one lane on each direction just north of 16 Avenue would be a disaster.

Exactly!
I don't understand why the community wouldn't want the tunnel to run as far north as possible.

[polishavenger]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

What the debate focused around is the belief that funding for the Green Line will be limited and the entire line won't be able to be built with the expected funding. The opinion of the majority of Councillors is that the Green Line is only worth doing if it can serve residents in the northern and southern suburbs on opening day. So although most Councillors believe the tunnel option is the way to go if that extra $450 million in cost means the Green Line can't be built out into the suburbs they want the ability to change their minds and sacrifice the downtown portion of the line for the sake of a further build out .

Its good to know that us inner city residents are second class citizens who's best interests can be disregarded and leveraged for the betterment of people who chose a life style that is financially unsustainable for the city as a whole, and who dont pull their own weight in terms of paying for city services.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Its good to know that us inner city residents are second class citizens who's best interests can be disregarded and leveraged for the betterment of people who chose a life style that is financially unsustainable for the city as a whole, and who dont pull their own weight in terms of paying for city services.

Delete the whole line then. This isn't an inner city transit project, it's a commuter transit project. If too many compromises are made this railway won't serve any functions well.