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  #8641  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 4:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
De quessé?
Said another way: transit semantics are stupid.
     
     
  #8642  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 4:24 PM
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Whatever. Toronto people are just angry that Montreal will soon have the 3rd largest metro system in North America and will eclipse that of Toronto.
     
     
  #8643  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 4:27 PM
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Here:

REM: http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/reseau-electrique-metropolitain-rem-montreal-quebec/

The project proposes the use of an initial 200 cars to operate on the LRT. Each vehicle will be approximately 80m-long and 3m-wide, and have a maximum axle load of 14.5t.

The rolling stock will incorporate four-car trains during peak hours and two-car trains during normal hours. Each train will be capable of accommodating 150 passengers.

The automated trains will have a maximum speed of 100km/h and will be powered by electricity supplied through 1,500V catenary.

Rubber tires, automated
Track gauge 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) standard gauge
Electrification 1500 V DC overhead
Top speed 100 km/h (62 mph)

They are calling it "LRT" or "light metro"
     
     
  #8644  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 4:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
Said another way: transit semantics are stupid.
In Canada we have:
Intercity
Regional rail
Commuter rail
Metro
Subway
Skytrain
Premetro
Light metro
LRT
Streetcar

I give up on trying to figure out which is which these days.
     
     
  #8645  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 4:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Beedok View Post
So are a lot of London Underground lines not metro lines as many of their stations are a 30 min+ walk from one another?

London, Washington, and plenty of other cities have metro systems that blur into commuter rail in the suburbs.
Yes. The London Underground very much takes on the form of an S Bahn the farther you get from the core of the system. There wouldn't be hundreds of pages of posts if everything was clearly identifiable as black or white.

The only thing for sure is that Canadian forumers consider a commuter transit line as inferior to an urban metro and are easily insulted when one is referenced as the other which makes no sense. They both serve their function.
     
     
  #8646  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 4:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
Said another way: transit semantics are stupid.
I suspect that outside of SSP peeps, transit users in Canada as elsewhere only care about two things: speed and service.
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  #8647  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 4:55 PM
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Of course. SSP is all about comparisons. The easiest way to do that with different transit systems is by measurement in number of kilometres.
     
     
  #8648  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by FFX-ME View Post
Whatever. Toronto people are just angry that Montreal will soon have the 3rd largest metro system in North America and will eclipse that of Toronto.
Well Vancouver will surpass Toronto this fall with the opening of the Evergreen extension. And Montréal still has the third highest metro ridership in North America.
     
     
  #8649  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 5:39 PM
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Yeah I would agree that the REM is an S-Bahn type system in between a metro and commuter rail. Metro-like frequencies and operating hours with commuter rail-like station spacing. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
     
     
  #8650  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 5:59 PM
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Well Vancouver will surpass Toronto this fall with the opening of the Evergreen extension. And Montréal still has the third highest metro ridership in North America.
The Toronto subway system will be behind for a long while, since Eglinton will technically not "qualify", despite providing 11km of underground, grade seperated transit, as 1/2 of trains will emerge and run at grade. Toronto will go up to 76.9km at the end of next year, but Vancouver will be at 79.5km with the Evergreen extension.

Toronto probably won't be first again, given the type of transit the city is focusing on right now (RER and LRT). The scarborough subway project will maintain the exact same network length, though it will be a vast increase in service. There will probably be some small expansion in the form of the DRL and Yonge extensions, but those are over a decade off.

metrics are generally dumb though, they do a poor job of describing the quality of transit available.
     
     
  #8651  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 6:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
Here:

REM: http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/reseau-electrique-metropolitain-rem-montreal-quebec/

The project proposes the use of an initial 200 cars to operate on the LRT. Each vehicle will be approximately 80m-long and 3m-wide, and have a maximum axle load of 14.5t.

The rolling stock will incorporate four-car trains during peak hours and two-car trains during normal hours. Each train will be capable of accommodating 150 passengers.

The automated trains will have a maximum speed of 100km/h and will be powered by electricity supplied through 1,500V catenary.

Rubber tires, automated
Track gauge 1,435 mm (4 ft 8 1⁄2 in) standard gauge
Electrification 1500 V DC overhead
Top speed 100 km/h (62 mph)

They are calling it "LRT" or "light metro"
Rubber tires and above ground? Clearly it's a trolley bus BRT.
     
     
  #8652  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 7:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
Yeah I would agree that the REM is an S-Bahn type system in between a metro and commuter rail. Metro-like frequencies and operating hours with commuter rail-like station spacing. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
yeah, forget all the terminology. It's a long distance express line which is very different from the rest of the system in Montreal. It makes the most sense in these sprawling low density suburbs. Likewise it makes sense for the Eglinton Line to put more emphasis on access to the system than on speed much to the dismay of a forumer or two. Apples and oranges really which makes these number of kilometres built comparisons having very little meaning.
     
     
  #8653  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 8:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
Yeah I would agree that the REM is an S-Bahn type system in between a metro and commuter rail. Metro-like frequencies and operating hours with commuter rail-like station spacing. Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Inclusive terminology is a lot better for people unfamiliar with the city to navigate it. I am strongly against Toronto's endless multi-tier transit.
     
     
  #8654  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 8:59 PM
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I knew it was a matter of time before this would happen. I'm ready!

Here is how APTA defines it: http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/APTA-ridership-report-definitions.pdf
Quote:
AG ‐ Automated Guideway Transit (also called personal rapid transit, group rapid transit, or people mover) is an electric railway (single or multi‐car trains) of guided transit vehicles operating without an onboard crew. Service may be on a fixed schedule or in response to a passenger activated call button.  
Jacksonville, Miami, and Vancouver's Skytrain!

CC ‐ Cable Car is a railway with individually controlled transit vehicles attached while moving to a moving cable located below the street surface and powered by engines or motors at a central location not on board the vehicle.  
San Francisco only

CR ‐ Commuter Rail is a mode of transit service (also called metropolitan rail, regional rail, or suburban rail) characterized by an electric or diesel propelled railway for urban passenger train service consisting of local short distance travel operating between a central city and adjacent suburbs. Service must be operated on a regular basis by or under contract with a transit operator for the purpose of transporting passengers within urbanized areas, or between urbanized areas and outlying areas. Such rail service, using either locomotive hauled or self‐propelled railroad passenger cars, is generally characterized by multi‐trip tickets, specific station to station fares, railroad employment practices and usually only one or two stations in the central business district. Intercity rail service is excluded, except for that portion of such service that is operated by or under contract with a public transit agency for predominantly commuter services. Most service is provided on routes of current or former freight railroads.  
GO Transit, AMT, and GVTA are the Canadian examples in APTA's report.

HR ‐ Heavy Rail is a mode of transit service (also called metro, subway, rapid transit, or rapid rail) operating on an electric railway with the capacity for a heavy volume of traffic. It is characterized by high speed and rapid acceleration passenger rail cars operating singly or in multi‐car trains on fixed rails; separate rights‐of‐way from which all other vehicular and foot traffic are excluded; sophisticated signaling, and high platform loading.  
Toronto's Subway, Montreal's Metro, LA, SF, Miami, DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Boston, Baltimore, NJ, NYC, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Puerto Rico.

IP ‐ Inclined Plane is a railway operating over exclusive right‐of‐way on steep grades (slopes) with powerless vehicles propelled by moving cables attached to the vehicles and powered by engines or motors at a central location not on board the vehicle. The special tramway type of vehicles has passenger seats that remain horizontal while the undercarriage (truck) is angled parallel to the slope.  
Pittsburg, Chattanooga, Johnstown.

LR ‐ Light Rail is a mode of transit service (also called streetcar, tramway, or trolley) operating passenger rail cars singly (or in short, usually two‐car or three‐car, trains) on fixed rails in right‐of‐way that is often separated from other traffic for part or much of the way. Light rail vehicles are typically driven electrically with power being drawn from an overhead electric line via a trolley or a pantograph; driven by an operator on board the vehicle; and may have either high platform loading or low level boarding using steps.  
ex: Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Toronto (streetcar), many US examples.
It seems likely that APTA will classify the REM as "Automated Guideway Transit".

Obviously, the semantics and definitions can only go so far. Jacksonvilles "Automated Guideway" is nothing compared to Vancouver's Skytrain. Toronto's streetcars, while popular and serving to the urban identity of Toronto's core, cannot compete with the speed and accessibility of Calgary's C-train. Different technologies are different to different cities.

Perhaps what's more important are metrics like passenger-kilometres (or passenger miles), ridership, headways, capital costs, etc., because these tell us how well a system is providing access, connecting citizens to opportunities and each other, unlocking land values, reducing congestion, and providing happiness (whatever that is) to citizens and visitors. Isn't that the point of rapid transit anyway? Speaking of "rapid", this is another tricky term to define. Typically, if we build our systems assuming people will walk up to a certain distance (say, 800m), then logically we often say we get the most value spacing stations at 1.5-1.6 km. It is these station spacings with a separated ROW that limits travel speed - not technology!

Want a system that is truly "rapid", space stations far enough apart to achieve those 80-100 km/h top speeds. Of course, this highly limits accessibility and you are going to build more track to serve fewer people.

What about ridership limitations? Is it true that "heavy rail" (i.e. Metro or Subway) can carry more people than LRT? The limiting factors, again, are nothing inherent to the technology, but rather the ease of loading/unloading, station length, car configuration, etc.

The kind of rolling stock makes a difference, but mainly because of the limitations regarding what each can handle with regards to grade changes. LRVs can handle unlimited 6-7% grades, which makes them versatile in hilly locations and in locations where it is useful to switch from below-grade to grade to above-grade. This can be very useful when we are trying to achieve a flat station immediately before a steep climb, and might save us millions of dollars of digging or give us more choices. Toronto's Subway has a 1,495 mm gauge; Montreal's Metro, Vancouver's Skytrain, and Calgary's C-train has 1,435 mm gauge; so there is really no difference in ultimate capacity so long as stations can be extended, cars connected and reconfigured, and equivalent headways achieved. Again, it is the other features such as automation, grade separation, weather, and station length that limits headways and capacity; not necessarily the rolling stock technology.

When it comes to rolling stock, it's not the weight that counts (HRT, LRT), it's how you use it.
     
     
  #8655  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 9:17 PM
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I think how people perceive REM will have a lot to do with the fares, frequency, and connection to the metro.
     
     
  #8656  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
I think how people perceive REM will have a lot to do with the fares, frequency, and connection to the metro.
frequency is already known, the fares should be comparable to what we have right now. Central Station, Mcgill and Édouard-Montpetit are the 3 potential intermodal stations. That would be pretty incredible.
     
     
  #8657  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 10:07 PM
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Will a regular metro fare get you to the airport on REM?
     
     
  #8658  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2016, 10:16 PM
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So it'll be the same fare and transferable to the regular metro, even to the airport?
taking the REM will probably be a little more expensive than the Métro.
     
     
  #8659  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2016, 2:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
The Toronto subway system will be behind for a long while, since Eglinton will technically not "qualify", despite providing 11km of underground, grade seperated transit, as 1/2 of trains will emerge and run at grade. Toronto will go up to 76.9km at the end of next year, but Vancouver will be at 79.5km with the Evergreen extension.

Toronto probably won't be first again, given the type of transit the city is focusing on right now (RER and LRT). The scarborough subway project will maintain the exact same network length, though it will be a vast increase in service. There will probably be some small expansion in the form of the DRL and Yonge extensions, but those are over a decade off.

metrics are generally dumb though, they do a poor job of describing the quality of transit available.

I agree with this. I absolutely love riding the Queen streetcar as a tourist when I'm in Toronto - it's so nice to be above ground and visually decide which places look interesting enough to get off. I find it a bit confusing that the subway maps last time I was there didn't include the streetcars - it seemed like they were an extension of the subway system and including them in the map would have made me more likely to use them...as a tourist I find that you often tend to gravitate towards metro systems just because they seem easier to use than do buses...
     
     
  #8660  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2016, 2:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere View Post
The Toronto subway system will be behind for a long while, since Eglinton will technically not "qualify", despite providing 11km of underground, grade seperated transit, as 1/2 of trains will emerge and run at grade. Toronto will go up to 76.9km at the end of next year, but Vancouver will be at 79.5km with the Evergreen extension.

Toronto probably won't be first again, given the type of transit the city is focusing on right now (RER and LRT). The scarborough subway project will maintain the exact same network length, though it will be a vast increase in service. There will probably be some small expansion in the form of the DRL and Yonge extensions, but those are over a decade off.

metrics are generally dumb though, they do a poor job of describing the quality of transit available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaskOttaLoo View Post
I agree with this. I absolutely love riding the Queen streetcar as a tourist when I'm in Toronto - it's so nice to be above ground and visually decide which places look interesting enough to get off. I find it a bit confusing that the subway maps last time I was there didn't include the streetcars - it seemed like they were an extension of the subway system and including them in the map would have made me more likely to use them...as a tourist I find that you often tend to gravitate towards metro systems just because they seem easier to use than do buses...
Well, if that is the case, Toronto is sitting at over 150km of railed transit currently in service.

That would mean that even when REM is built, Montreal will be in second with over 130km and Vancouver is still in 3rd.

This is why I hate semantics.
     
     
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