PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[Wally G]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

In recent years, East Liberty is being transformed, the Strip is being transformed, Lawrenceville is continuing to boom, more development is happening in Oakland and the Baum-Center corridor, South Side Works has shifted into a better mix of uses and is further developing, Downtown is continuing to thrive with an increase in night time population thanks to new residences and hotels, the river fronts are continuing to make progress, and on and on.

I'm as frustrated as anyone about the slow progress on the North Shore and in the Lower Hill, but that is fundamentally because development rights were stupidly given to pro sports teams as part of the public bribe for them to stay here.

Of course that isn't all Peduto, but he is proving, for the most part, to be a good partner and participant when it comes to development.

As for population--look again at those 2000 to 2010 numbers. The total population dropped about 29,000, but the 20s population increased 12,500.

The latest population estimate for the City suggest it may have lost a little over 1000 in population between 2010 and 2015:

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...n-city-s-population/stories/201605190056

That's already tracking way better overall than 2000 to 2010, and that is consistent with--in fact, basically requires--the young population to be growing a lot.

My comments was about the mayor not doing much in terms of development. What has he done besides bike lanes? Also 29,00 is a lot of people and look at neighborhoods like Homewood that population has dropped ridiculously. In the censusreports it showed small drops in the population and the Pittsburgh Post Gazette had an article about around May i believe. I agree things are getting better but i never argued to that and love the changes being made. Though even with the changes to the city problems on why the younger population is not being fully addressed. Most store and shops close at 7:00 downtown and our malls close way too early. The city can be more diverse and have more entertainment in the neighborhoods. Most youth here complain there is nothing to do which i highly disagree but feel we can have more entertainment.
I do feel with some development get blocked because the city sometimes lives in the past. The Garden Theater block is a prime example, its being blocked because eight stories and off street parking. Or the condo tower being turned down in the strip over height. Even though projects are going on in the strip for the most part its dead at night. Your absolutely right about the North Shore and the Lower Hill development projects. I just keep wondering when is someone going to develop the west end which get neglected compared to the rest the city.

[BrianTH]

Most of the major projects that have been happening have a public component--new streets, trails, green spaces, and so on, often along with tax credits or other subsidies. Unfortunately, there is definitely a disturbing anti-development NIMBY strain in the City, but the Mayor can't just unilaterally override them.

We've got a booming bar and restaurant scene, plus new music venues, plus ever more outdoor recreation options. That's what young people want these days. Downtown at night is totally different from it was several years ago--lots of places keep hopping well into the evening.

So we'll see, but my guess is the youth population is still growing steadily. Meanwhile, it is true that in some neighborhoods, older people are still dying or moving away. But that has been baked in the cake for a long time, and it is going to take a long time to completely turn it around.

[photoLith]

I was just looking at google maps and they have a cool feature where you can look back at streetview and they have downtown from 2007. Its really amazing how much nicer downtown is now. It looked like — not even 10 years ago.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by photoLith

I was just looking at google maps and they have a cool feature where you can look back at streetview and they have downtown from 2007. Its really amazing how much nicer downtown is now. It looked like — not even 10 years ago.

Yep, and getting better all the time. The cool thing is Downtown proper still has lots of unrealized potential in its own right, and development of the surrounding areas will only enhance that.

[photoLith]

This isnt really development related, in fact its the opposite. I work down in Clairton, which is depressed as hell. While Pittsburgh's neighborhoods are slowly improving, all the towns down the Mon keep falling to pieces. I drive past Duquesne every day I work down there and they are in the process tearing down the Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Church, which is about 100 years old. The church has been abandoned for decades now and just a few weeks ago the back half collapsed. The church will be completely gone this time tomorrow. Here are some photos I was able to get of it yesterday before its gone forever.

POT_4665-2 by photolitherland, on Flickr

POT_4699-2 by photolitherland, on Flickr

I highly doubt Monongahela, Duquesne, Brownsville, Clairton, Monesson, etc will ever see redevelopment again and more than likely, they will be almost completely abandoned in 50 years.

Anyways, here's a photo I got tonight of the new SkyVue Apartments and the hotel next door going up in Oakland.

POT_4746 by photolitherland, on Flickr

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by Wally G

My comments was about the mayor not doing much in terms of development. What has he done besides bike lanes? Also 29,00 is a lot of people and look at neighborhoods like Homewood that population has dropped ridiculously. In the censusreports it showed small drops in the population and the Pittsburgh Post Gazette had an article about around May i believe. I agree things are getting better but i never argued to that and love the changes being made. Though even with the changes to the city problems on why the younger population is not being fully addressed. Most store and shops close at 7:00 downtown and our malls close way too early. The city can be more diverse and have more entertainment in the neighborhoods. Most youth here complain there is nothing to do which i highly disagree but feel we can have more entertainment.
I do feel with some development get blocked because the city sometimes lives in the past. The Garden Theater block is a prime example, its being blocked because eight stories and off street parking. Or the condo tower being turned down in the strip over height. Even though projects are going on in the strip for the most part its dead at night. Your absolutely right about the North Shore and the Lower Hill development projects. I just keep wondering when is someone going to develop the west end which get neglected compared to the rest the city.

My observations are nearly the exact opposite. Pittsburgh has become the poster-child for cities that millennials are flocking to. The growing media buzz in the past few years is a stark contrast to Pittsburgh of 10 or 20 years ago. It also compares favorably to status of other rust belt cities. There are now more people moving to Pittsburgh than out of Pittsburgh. There was a small setback with the decrease in natural gas prices but thankfully our economy is no longer dependent on a single industry.

Given Pittsburgh's past, with the decline of the steel industry and manufacturing, what are realistic expectations to have? In my opinion, Pittsburgh has done better than all other devastated, former steel/industrial towns.

I had to laugh when reading that a major problem in Pittsburgh is malls closing way too early. The younger generation in particular is shunning malls and instead favoring walkable/bikable urban settings. Places like Brooklyn and Lawrenceville are booming precisely because they are not based on malls.

Certainly things can always be better. But I think overall we're on the right track and the outlook quite good. Cities don't boom overnight and i'm ok that developments can sometimes be delayed or halted. It is worthwhile to have these battles about the developments that shape the city we live in.

As for lack of things for young people to do... sounds like you're talking to some grumpy people who aren't out there enjoying the ton of options that Pittsburgh has to offer. Just this weekend there was the Thrival Innovation + Music Festival at the Carrie Furnace. The venue and atmosphere were incredible! Meanwhile I was biking on beautiful cliffside trails above the Monongahela and could see the light show and hear the crowd and music. It was spectacular, vibrant and very Pittsburgh.

For the record... I moved here from Colorado to attend grad school at CMU and stayed.

[themaguffin]

Burns & Scalo buys former GlaxoSmithKline campus for $19M

Local developer in talks with two potential tenants to fill void left by corporate consolidation.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/ne...-buys-former-glaxosmithkline-campus.html

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

Burns & Scalo buys former GlaxoSmithKline campus for $19M

Local developer in talks with two potential tenants to fill void left by corporate consolidation.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/ne...-buys-former-glaxosmithkline-campus.html

Where is that? The story's behind a paywall.

[Wally G]

Originally Posted by dfiler

My observations are nearly the exact opposite. Pittsburgh has become the poster-child for cities that millennials are flocking to. The growing media buzz in the past few years is a stark contrast to Pittsburgh of 10 or 20 years ago. It also compares favorably to status of other rust belt cities. There are now more people moving to Pittsburgh than out of Pittsburgh. There was a small setback with the decrease in natural gas prices but thankfully our economy is no longer dependent on a single industry.

Given Pittsburgh's past, with the decline of the steel industry and manufacturing, what are realistic expectations to have? In my opinion, Pittsburgh has done better than all other devastated, former steel/industrial towns.

I had to laugh when reading that a major problem in Pittsburgh is malls closing way too early. The younger generation in particular is shunning malls and instead favoring walkable/bikable urban settings. Places like Brooklyn and Lawrenceville are booming precisely because they are not based on malls.

Certainly things can always be better. But I think overall we're on the right track and the outlook quite good. Cities don't boom overnight and i'm ok that developments can sometimes be delayed or halted. It is worthwhile to have these battles about the developments that shape the city we live in.

As for lack of things for young people to do... sounds like you're talking to some grumpy people who aren't out there enjoying the ton of options that Pittsburgh has to offer. Just this weekend there was the Thrival Innovation + Music Festival at the Carrie Furnace. The venue and atmosphere were incredible! Meanwhile I was biking on beautiful cliffside trails above the Monongahela and could see the light show and hear the crowd and music. It was spectacular, vibrant and very Pittsburgh.

For the record... I moved here from Colorado to attend grad school at CMU and stayed.

I really think your missing my point, i never said malls closing early is a major problem. It was an example on how the night life scene can improve without development. You moved here but i been here my whole life so you explaining stuff i know. I did stay unlike most people i attended school with and they didn't moved to another rust belt city.
Things close too early here and younger people point that out and it is the truth. It can be an easy change and like i said i defend the city all the time. I wouldn't be on this forum if i didn't have a passion for the city. Everyone do something different for fun so i wouldn't call them grumpy. It would be nice to have more bowling alleys in the inner city, skating rinks, and movie theaters. More than one Dave and Busters and something like a Ballpark Village or an Xfinity LIVE. I was just pointing out the youth doesn't just leave because of jobs. I walk through East Liberty all the time and wish it had some type of entertainment. The movie theater project fell but hopefully someone get it done.
Pittsburgh came along way since i was a kid and i walk almost everywhere and enjoy the changes all the time. You moved from Colorado, funny thing is my best friend moved there. I feel Pittsburgh is a great place to live but there is always room for improvement.

[Wally G]

Originally Posted by photoLith

This isnt really development related, in fact its the opposite. I work down in Clairton, which is depressed as hell. While Pittsburgh's neighborhoods are slowly improving, all the towns down the Mon keep falling to pieces. I drive past Duquesne every day I work down there and they are in the process tearing down the Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Church, which is about 100 years old. The church has been abandoned for decades now and just a few weeks ago the back half collapsed. The church will be completely gone this time tomorrow. Here are some photos I was able to get of it yesterday before its gone forever.

POT_4665-2 by photolitherland, on Flickr


POT_4699-2 by photolitherland, on Flickr

I highly doubt Monongahela, Duquesne, Brownsville, Clairton, Monesson, etc will ever see redevelopment again and more than likely, they will be almost completely abandoned in 50 years.

Anyways, here's a photo I got tonight of the new SkyVue Apartments and the hotel next door going up in Oakland.

POT_4746 by photolitherland, on Flickr

I hate seeing churches get torn down and nice shot of Skyvue can you take a picture of the fifth ave side?

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

They seem to just want bicyclists to go away, or at least start driving cars like Real Americans.

But every bicyclist that I know also drives cars. The commenters seem to imply that bicyclists are some other type of species who hate cars and love to ruin their day.

Originally Posted by GeneW

Don't you know? Bike Lanes are just the first part of the Agenda 21 plot by the United Nations to take over the country. /s

Yawn. I don't have time to think about the ramblings of insane people.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Let's see if this works...



Edit: Seems to work both on my cell and home computer. Two quick thoughts:

1. While I like the traditional design, I don't see any pressing need for the weird cut out of the facade on the right side, making some sort of first-floor commercial patio. It's too small to be for outdoor seating (probably around 10 feet, since the entire property is only 40 feet wide), so I'm not sure I get the point.

2. The space between it and the building on the left is artificially shrunk due to the odd perspective, which seems misleading to me. It's actually close to a 20 foot gap.

Man, that building is the most historic matching infill I have seen.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Wally G

I really think your missing my point, i never said malls closing early is a major problem. It was an example on how the night life scene can improve without development. You moved here but i been here my whole life so you explaining stuff i know. I did stay unlike most people i attended school with and they didn't moved to another rust belt city.
Things close too early here and younger people point that out and it is the truth. It can be an easy change and like i said i defend the city all the time. I wouldn't be on this forum if i didn't have a passion for the city. Everyone do something different for fun so i wouldn't call them grumpy. It would be nice to have more bowling alleys in the inner city, skating rinks, and movie theaters. More than one Dave and Busters and something like a Ballpark Village or an Xfinity LIVE. I was just pointing out the youth doesn't just leave because of jobs. I walk through East Liberty all the time and wish it had some type of entertainment. The movie theater project fell but hopefully someone get it done.
Pittsburgh came along way since i was a kid and i walk almost everywhere and enjoy the changes all the time. You moved from Colorado, funny thing is my best friend moved there. I feel Pittsburgh is a great place to live but there is always room for improvement.

It's amazing that Oakland, with tens of thousands of college kids doesn't have a movie theater.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by themaguffin

Burns & Scalo buys former GlaxoSmithKline campus for $19M

Local developer in talks with two potential tenants to fill void left by corporate consolidation.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/ne...-buys-former-glaxosmithkline-campus.html

Originally Posted by GeneW

Where is that? The story's behind a paywall.

I think that is a stock photo from their HQ in London. Their building in Moon is not very cutting edge. Just average suburban office park style. At least 274 people worked there. http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/ne...smithkline-shutting-moon-office-274.html

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

It's amazing that Oakland, with tens of thousands of college kids doesn't have a movie theater.

Good point.

I'd go further and say that theaters, malls, skating rinks and bowling alleys are not big factors in the popularity Pittsburgh among the youth. If anything, younger people are less interested in those things than previous generations of youth. Personally, I'm glad our mayor doesn't fixate on them.

A bigger deal is the availability of jobs. It especially helps when jobs are high paying (gas industry), stable (health care + education) or at companies perceived as hip (apple, google and uber), etc. Also important is the affordability of housing and the type of neighborhoods in which such housing is available. Beyond that, things like foodie restaurants, small music venues, riverfront trails, bike lanes, and parks are key to keeping residents as they come of age. I'm sure many other things could be added to the list, but not the traditional mall, theater, skating rink or bowling alley.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

It's amazing that Oakland, with tens of thousands of college kids doesn't have a movie theater.

Kids watch bittorrented movies on their laptops these days.

[BrianTH]

No one is stopping companies from offering bowling alleys and movie theaters, but they are offering restaurants, bars, live music venues, and so on instead because that is what actually makes money. And it makes money because that is what people these days want to spend money on. And I might point out the "planned" entertainment areas, like the area between the stadiums, are way less popular than the organic areas like the South Side and Lawrencville.

I'm far from a total laissez-faire type--when it comes to public amenities like parks, trails, and so on, government should play a large role precisely because it doesn't make sense to try to operate such things for profit. But when it comes to for-profit entertainment, or for-profit retail, and so on, government should largely get out of the way and let companies offer what the people actually want, as proven by what is actually profitable.

[Wally G]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

It's amazing that Oakland, with tens of thousands of college kids doesn't have a movie theater.

Yeah great point i never thought about that and i think one there would do really good.

[Wally G]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

No one is stopping companies from offering bowling alleys and movie theaters, but they are offering restaurants, bars, live music venues, and so on instead because that is what actually makes money. And it makes money because that is what people these days want to spend money on. And I might point out the "planned" entertainment areas, like the area between the stadiums, are way less popular than the organic areas like the South Side and Lawrencville.

I'm far from a total laissez-faire type--when it comes to public amenities like parks, trails, and so on, government should play a large role precisely because it doesn't make sense to try to operate such things for profit. But when it comes to for-profit entertainment, or for-profit retail, and so on, government should largely get out of the way and let companies offer what the people actually want, as proven by what is actually profitable.

I understand the economics side but it would be nice to have more entertainment proposed other than bars and restaurants. Arsenal lanes in Lawrenceville is always packed it does well and Ballpark Village in St. Louis is doing pretty well also . I know the Penguins are looking to do something like that in the lower Hill. I do think other types of entertainment makes money, but are more expensive to build. After i eat and drink i like to bowl,skate, or watch a movie like most young people. Just wish there was more in walking distance like in East Liberty. I personally like Nola in Market square with the live Jazz nights so i understand your point.

[dfiler]

I think everyone is in favor of more entertainment and businesses offering fun activities. Where we likely differ is about what role the government should play in forming that marketplace. And we also likely differ about exactly which forms of entertainment are worth subsidizing or spending government resources to encourage.

It is my assertion that the businesses you mentioned, movies, skating and bowling, are not effective in luring young people or keeping them in Pittsburgh. Google those in conjunction with the term youth, and you'll see, for example, that movie audiences are not young and are in fact on a steady trend of audiences getting older.

In my opinion, it is good that the mayor and city government are not spending their valuable time in promoting those industries. Government is better suited to intervening in sectors that do not adequately address public needs when left to the free market. Fire protection and infrastructure are good examples. Accessible education, public open spaces, etc. Those are things that won't just appear as the result of a free market.