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  #2781  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_00_05 View Post
Building more "housing for the homeless" will only increase the amount of homeless in DT. It will attract more, just like more services under the guise of helping or "reducing" the amount of homeless, only increases it.
First, what's your evidence for your claim? Second, what's your solution?
     
     
  #2782  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 7:16 PM
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Originally Posted by SD_Phil View Post
First, what's your evidence for your claim? Second, what's your solution?
He's not saying that building more housing for the homeless will directly cause a rise in homelessness overall, if that's what you got from it. He's right that building it downtown will only encourage them to stay, or encourage more to come in.

Skid row is already a magnet for the mentally ill and addicted homeless, so I can't imagine that building nice, new and permanent housing will necessarily drive them away. If anything it will just sustain the homeless population. Housing does not turn a homeless person (especially from SKid Row) into a functioning member of society.
     
     
  #2783  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by NativeOrange View Post
He's not saying that building more housing for the homeless will directly cause a rise in homelessness overall, if that's what you got from it. He's right that building it downtown will only encourage them to stay, or encourage more to come in.

Skid row is already a magnet for the mentally ill and addicted homeless, so I can't imagine that building nice, new and permanent housing will necessarily drive them away. If anything it will just sustain the homeless population. Housing does not turn a homeless person (especially from SKid Row) into a functioning member of society.
So you've figured it all out. What is your solution? I am pretty sure housing will help get a lot of homeless people who are not chronically homeless and not on the streets by choice off the streets and out of their cars. I also suspect that a good many people who are chronically homeless due to mental illness and drug dependency would accept housing if there were no strings attached like having to stay clean and sober.
     
     
  #2784  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 8:05 PM
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Originally Posted by NativeOrange View Post
He's not saying that building more housing for the homeless will directly cause a rise in homelessness overall, if that's what you got from it. He's right that building it downtown will only encourage them to stay, or encourage more to come in.

Skid row is already a magnet for the mentally ill and addicted homeless, so I can't imagine that building nice, new and permanent housing will necessarily drive them away. If anything it will just sustain the homeless population. Housing does not turn a homeless person (especially from SKid Row) into a functioning member of society.
Spreading services may thin the visibility of the homeless population but does literally nothing except make their lives worse. I'm not willing to make another human's life worse just for cosmetic appearance or to make social problems invisible for the benefit of wealthy DTLA condo owners.

The homeless need services that meet their various, and in some cases serious, needs. We've tried looking away for decades and all that that has done is create an inhuman disaster. So I ask again, what's your solution?
     
     
  #2785  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 8:06 PM
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Originally Posted by dktshb View Post
So you've figured it all out. What is your solution? I am pretty sure housing will help get a lot of homeless people who are not chronically homeless and not on the streets by choice off the streets and out of their cars. I also suspect that a good many people who are chronically homeless due to mental illness and drug dependency would accept housing if there were no strings attached like having to stay clean and sober.
True. So my point is...build it elsewhere. Not downtown in an area that is surrounded by increasingly desirable areas. Why keep the homeless centralized?

If you think I am against building housing for the homeless, you missed my point. I am, however, against building it downtown.

Btw, I do not have a be all end all solution. Does anybody?
     
     
  #2786  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dktshb View Post
So you've figured it all out. What is your solution? I am pretty sure housing will help get a lot of homeless people who are not chronically homeless and not on the streets by choice off the streets and out of their cars. I also suspect that a good many people who are chronically homeless due to mental illness and drug dependency would accept housing if there were no strings attached like having to stay clean and sober.
Not to single you specifically but what exactly does any of this have to do with downtown development? Are you referring to a specific project? Maybe this isn't the place for this discussion if this is a general topic regarding solving the homeless crisis.
     
     
  #2787  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 8:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SD_Phil View Post
Spreading services may thin the visibility of the homeless population but does literally nothing except make their lives worse. I'm not willing to make another human's life worse just for cosmetic appearance or to make social problems invisible for the benefit of wealthy DTLA condo owners.

The homeless need services that meet their various, and in some cases serious, needs. We've tried looking away for decades and all that that has done is create an inhuman disaster. So I ask again, what's your solution?
Once again, does anybody really have a 100% fix for the homeless? No. I also didn't know that you needed one in order to discuss the issue. My bad.

Anyways, my view remains the same. Also, for the sake of avoiding yet another derailment by way of homeless issues in this thread, let's get back on track.

@WallyWest: nice photo of Metropolis! That angle makes it look like a more structurally dense development than it actually is.
     
     
  #2788  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2016, 8:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Easy View Post
Not to single you specifically but what exactly does any of this have to do with downtown development? Are you referring to a specific project? Maybe this isn't the place for this discussion if this is a general topic regarding solving the homeless crisis.
"What exactly does any of this (homelessness) have to do with downtown development?"

At some point (I think we are close in L.A. & S.F. & S.D.) it will have EVERYTHING to do with future downtown development. When people on a daily basis run into people sleeping on the sidewalks in front of their buildings, relieving themselves in plain view, aggressively panhandling etc., it will be a major deterrent to moving & living there. The projects will slow & then stop if DTLA and DTSF and DTSD become Calcutta-like cesspools. We are at the point where the problem MUST be tackled. Hopefully the federal government and state government can help the cities, since it is really a national problem. I agree that the issue should be spread around the region, not just DTLA. Yes Beverly Hills, you too. Shooing them away and arresting them won't work. They just go elsewhere, and will return.

Also, other cities and states need to stop dumping their homeless on California cities, especially LA, SF & SD. Hawaii was giving homeless free plane tickets to California--are they still doing that?

Not all homeless are "mentally disturbed" and "drug addicts". Many are regular people like you and me who have lost their jobs or have medical issues and just can't afford the super-high rents. I say, we need to house them. First interim housing, perhaps more clean shelters, and even tent campgrounds with security, showers & toilets. Those with vehicles should be allowed to park in a safe area with security & facilities, perhaps in industrial areas. Later, permanent housing--microunits, refurbished shipping containers etc. Housing the homeless will make DTLA much more desirable, and increase development of this wonderful area.

These are not vermin, they are HUMAN BEINGS! How many of you are one or two checks away from homelessness? Everyone should imagine themselves homeless. What would you do? Where would you go? There is no monopoly on "good" or "evil" or "substance abuse" or "criminality" among any economic class. There are multi-millionaires and billionaires who have substance abuse problems, and do bad things, just like some homeless do. The difference is the rich have money (often inherited) to buy housing. Instead of squandering trillions of dollars on endless wars, the U.S. should solve the homeless problem (for one tenth of one percent of the cost). The U.S. gave the criminal bankers hundreds of billions of dollars in the 2008 financial crisis that the banker crooks created--why not spend $10 or $20 billion to help house homeless, including VETs?

In a massive earthquake (in any of our big western cities) millions could become homeless. Nobody would question the need to provide shelter, as was done in San Francisco in 1906. The current homeless problem is largely a financial crisis, a question of the unaffordabilty of housing relative to wages for working people (and yes, substance abuse too for some). It must be treated like a "financial earthquake", much like the Great Depression & the "Hooverville" era. The problem must be solved or the DTLA building boom could wither and end. This is why this topic is relevant.

Last edited by CaliNative; Sep 25, 2016 at 9:51 PM.
     
     
  #2789  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CaliNative View Post
"What exactly does any of this (homelessness) have to do with downtown development?"

Also, other cities and states need to stop dumping their homeless on California cities, especially LA, SF & SD. Hawaii was giving homeless free plane tickets to California--are they still doing that?
This is a really big deal. San Francisco sued the state of Nevada in 2013 because they continued to engage in this practice. This is an interstate issue that really should be getting Federal attention.
     
     
  #2790  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 4:33 AM
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Alright guys, lets get back on topic. We're getting a bit carried away.
     
     
  #2791  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 5:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SD_Phil View Post
First, what's your evidence for your claim? Second, what's your solution?
I'm not providing empirical data at all, just one man's opinion. But in subsidizing something, you'll always get more of it. Put it this way...say you're a homeless individual, good chance with mental or chemical dependency problems. Which sounds more attractive to you?

1) City A that provides no services, has no shelters, encourages police to shoo panhandlers away, no structured drug dealing, etc

Or

2) City B that has complete centralized services, forces developers to maintain SROs, has an open air drug bazaar, numerous shelters, handicaps police in doing their jobs, advocacy groups that prevent any sort of progress, etc, etc.

Add to the mix temperate weather and you don't just get CA transplants, you get them from around the nation.

I think decentralization of services/shelters, stopping the drug flow, and a constant police presence is key. Again, just my opinion, nothing more.

Parking podiums is right though, this has veered way off course so I'm done.
     
     
  #2792  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 6:27 AM
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Originally Posted by SC_00_05 View Post
I'm not providing empirical data at all, just one man's opinion. But in subsidizing something, you'll always get more of it. Put it this way...say you're a homeless individual, good chance with mental or chemical dependency problems. Which sounds more attractive to you?

1) City A that provides no services, has no shelters, encourages police to shoo panhandlers away, no structured drug dealing, etc

Or

2) City B that has complete centralized services, forces developers to maintain SROs, has an open air drug bazaar, numerous shelters, handicaps police in doing their jobs, advocacy groups that prevent any sort of progress, etc, etc.

Add to the mix temperate weather and you don't just get CA transplants, you get them from around the nation.

I think decentralization of services/shelters, stopping the drug flow, and a constant police presence is key. Again, just my opinion, nothing more.

Parking podiums is right though, this has veered way off course so I'm done.
Everything looks rational compared to a strawman.
     
     
  #2793  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SD_Phil View Post
This is a really big deal. San Francisco sued the state of Nevada in 2013 because they continued to engage in this practice. This is an interstate issue that really should be getting Federal attention.
I forgot about that. Yes, Nevada does dump homeless on CA (as does Hawaii), or did in past. All I see is more homeless every day near where I live, in north San Diego County. It is really a massive problem, and will impact development and desire of people to live there unless it is solved. It is also a health issue, a breeding ground for diseases, people living without basic sanitation. I think the big elephant in the room is that wages for the working poor and even middle class have not kept pace with rent increases. There is also a constant influx of new poor from across the border that soak up housing. Plus, there is almost no affordable housing being developed anymore, and the affordable housing that exists is being torn down or redeveloped.

Interim solutions abound: for homeless with vehicles, safe parking areas with security & restrooms & showers. For those without vehicles, safe urban campgrounds, with security & restrooms & showers. Both of these could be set up in industrial areas, to reduce complaints from residents. These two measures could be done for a relative pittance, until more shelter beds & housing is built. Once there is adequate interim or permanent housing, a form of mild anti-vagrancy laws could be reintroduced, prohibiting homeless from camping on their own or sleeping outside of these approved facilities.

Also, there should be a federal law prohibiting one state (or city) from dumping homeless on another state (or city). Of course, the homeless can self relocate, but the state or city shouldn't give them funds or plane/bus tickets to do so unless the homeless person requests it. Most important, the federal govt. needs to get involved, funding more subsidized housing. The demand far outstrips the supply currently.

I would also love to see more billionaires & multi-millionaires take up the homeless problem. Museums with their names on it are great, but so would be shelters and residences for homeless people.

"More difficult for a rich man to enter My Father's Kingdom than for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle" to paraphrase, and I'm not even religious. A large homeless shelter with a rich man's name on it--Afterlife Insurance.

Last edited by CaliNative; Sep 26, 2016 at 12:02 PM.
     
     
  #2794  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Easy View Post
Not to single you specifically but what exactly does any of this have to do with downtown development? Are you referring to a specific project? Maybe this isn't the place for this discussion if this is a general topic regarding solving the homeless crisis.
I started a new thread on the "City Discussions" forum page here, so in future the discussion can move over there.

But make no mistake, the homeless crisis will at some point (perhaps soon) impact development in DTLA and elsewhere. People will not see an area that swarms with homeless as a desirable place to live or work. It is totally relevant I believe. Solutions must be found, as the problem grows by the day.

I would urge everyone to reread the book or rewatch the film "The Grapes of Wrath" by Steinbeck. Especially note the section where the Joads stay at a safe and clean federal government "sanitation camp" set up by the Ag dept for migrant labor.

Last edited by CaliNative; Sep 26, 2016 at 12:13 PM.
     
     
  #2795  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 12:27 PM
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Thanks WallyWest: real nice shot from the Regent, things seem to change so quickly when your not actually there, but I try to keep up with them. thanks
     
     
  #2796  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 12:57 PM
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WW, You know I had Regent Main St on my mind instead of Regal (Olympic) image would never line up, should have known.
     
     
  #2797  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SC_00_05 View Post
Building more "housing for the homeless" will only increase the amount of homeless in DT. It will attract more, just like more services under the guise of helping or "reducing" the amount of homeless, only increases it.
Exactly. Look at how the Rossylin (5th and Main) has and the area around it has gone to — since it opened.
     
     
  #2798  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SD_Phil View Post
Spreading services may thin the visibility of the homeless population but does literally nothing except make their lives worse. I'm not willing to make another human's life worse just for cosmetic appearance or to make social problems invisible for the benefit of wealthy DTLA condo owners.

The homeless need services that meet their various, and in some cases serious, needs. We've tried looking away for decades and all that that has done is create an inhuman disaster. So I ask again, what's your solution?
The solution is to get all of the homeless out of DTLA immediately. What sense does it make to have a huge mentally ill, drug addicted, criminal element in Downtown LA? The city leaders need to build a massive mental health, drug rehab and job center with housing in the boonies so these people are away from all the temptation. On my 10 block walk last night, i saw 2 losers shooting up on the sidewalk in very busy sections of DTLA. Its getting worse and having them all herded together is helping no one.
     
     
  #2799  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2016, 9:14 PM
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Everything looks rational compared to a strawman.
Wheres the straw man here? This is the reality
     
     
  #2800  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2016, 12:23 AM
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The solution is to get all of the homeless out of DTLA immediately. What sense does it make to have a huge mentally ill, drug addicted, criminal element in Downtown LA? The city leaders need to build a massive mental health, drug rehab and job center with housing in the boonies so these people are away from all the temptation. On my 10 block walk last night, i saw 2 losers shooting up on the sidewalk in very busy sections of DTLA. Its getting worse and having them all herded together is helping no one.
Definitely agree. Skid Row in downtown Los Angeles needs to be dismantled. Just walking near the area and smelling the dried urine on the sidewalks is so disgusting.
     
     
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