O-Train Line 1/3 [Stage 2 | West Extension | Tunney's to Baseline/Moodie] | U/C

[lrt's friend]

Hopefully they move Baseline BRT forward more quickly. It doesn't look like the connections between Baseline Station and Bayshore will be very convenient by LRT, having to go to Lincoln Fields and then backtrack.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

That Queensview station is a lousy spot for pedestrian access to the north, compared to the current Pinecrest bus station.

There will also be a stop at Pinecrest. I think the bigger benefit of Queensview station is access to the south with the new pedestrian bridge.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Hopefully they move Baseline BRT forward more quickly. It doesn't look like the connections between Baseline Station and Bayshore will be very convenient by LRT, having to go to Lincoln Fields and then backtrack.

That's the case today as well, at least when you're going westbound.

It is too bad that Queensway station is closing. Particularly for someone coming from Baseline, it will no longer be easy to transfer to the 101 route.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

There will also be a stop at Pinecrest. I think the bigger benefit of Queensview station is access to the south with the new pedestrian bridge.

That pedestrian bridge will be close to useless unless you work at the Citizen. The biggest magnet there is undoubtedly IKEA, but it will be more than a 600-metre walk along a noisy pathway beside the Queensway open to the elements. I doubt many people will opt to use the LRT to get there if it's cold or wet other than the employees.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by Guideway

Why is lincoln field a 3 track station? Makes no sense to me...

Normally, south-/west-bound (outbound) trains will use the west platform (the one closest to Lincoln Fields Shopping Center), with the train on the outside tracks. Normally, inbound trains will use the east-most platform, with the train on the outside tracks. So, under normal conditions, the central tracks are not used. The two branches will normally have successive trains alternating between the two such as:

1. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 0
2. outbound train to Baseline at minute 3
3. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 6
4. Outbound train to Baseline at minute 9

So a train on each branch at half the frequency of the line north of Lincoln Fields Station.

If it turns out that the Lincoln Fields Station has a lot of walk-on/walk-off passengers, or transferees to/from buses, then it might be useful to have a third train using the central tracks to provide additional capacity between Lincoln Fields and, say, Hurdman Stations. (Although Hurdman is not being designed for this, the Stage 2 study envisions this as an operation option.) This scenario would reduce the number of outbound trains that are split between the Bayshore and Baseline branches. That is, instead of having the 3-minute peak service being divided down to 6-minute service on each branch, there would be timing like this:

1. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 0
2. outbound train to Baseline at minute 3
3. outbound train short turned at minute 6
4. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 9
5. Outbound train to Baseline at minute 12
6. outbound train short turned at minute 15

Thus, the main-line north of Lincoln Fields will see a train every 3 minutes; each branch will get a train every 9 minutes. This might be an option during the shoulders of the peak periods.

At off-peak times, when there are trains north of Lincoln Fields every 15 minutes, the alternating trains on each branch would only run every half hour. This would make transit undesirable for many. An option suggested by the study team is to use the central track to handle a ‘shuttle’ train between Lincoln Fields and Bayshore Stations at the same (15-minute) frequency of the Baseline Branch. Using a shuttle means that both branches will have the same frequency of trains as the section north of Lincoln Fields.

The 15-minute trains would run the entire Confederation Line from Place D'Orléans to Baseline Stations and the shuttle would run a 15-minute service between Bayshore and Lincoln Fields Stations.. This operation requires the third set of tracks south of Lincoln Fields (connecting to the lines to/from Bayshore) so that the shuttle can run parallel to the inbound and outbound trains. The pattern would be:

1. the shuttle approaches from Bayshore on inbound tracks from Bayshore
2. inbound and outbound trains and shuttle all arrive at Lincoln Fields Station, with the shuttle in the middle
3. shuttle opens doors on both sides and passengers transfer to the appropriate train
4. both trains and the shuttle leave with the shuttle switching to the outbound tracks to Bayshore

Passengers from/to Baseline get the same 15-minute service that is north of Lincoln Fields and require no transfer. Passengers from/to Bayshore also get service every 15 minutes on their shuttle and have a quick transfer at Lincoln Fields to trains going in all directions.

[Richard Eade]

Yes, there is new (temporary) asphalt for the Transitway. The buses will be pushed west/south so that the Transitway can continue to run – at least as far as Iris – while much of the LRT infrastructure is constructed. This will delay the bus-pressure along Woodroffe, north of Iris.

Once the trains are in operation, the Transitway infrastructure will be removed from the Pinecrest Creek corridor and the land returned to the NCC. It will be up to the NCC if they want to extend the Sir JAM to the 417. The underpass at Carling will remain.

Since the widening of the 417 will be bundled with the LRT construction, the Queesnway Station’s ‘lanes’ will need to be returned to the MTO at that time. Actually, most of the 417 will not be ‘widened’ since the auxiliary lanes generally provide the 4 through lanes – except at overpasses. Basically, the overpasses will be modified/replaced to provide the room for those lanes to continue through. New speed-change lanes will be provided outside of the current auxiliary lanes; similar to what recently happened with the south to east on-ramp from Greenbank Road. The Pinecrest overpass will be redesigned to also provide an LRT underpass along the north side of the 417.

[McC]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

.

yowzers, how much of the day/night will have 15 minute frequencies? I think that's a pretty terrible service level.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

They're going as far as building a new underpass at Carling and they're not putting the station beneath it? I don't understand why they're proposing such a large bus staging area while making it difficult to catch a transfer on the other side of Carling.

They are basically continuing to force all east bound buses to loop into the station. It would make so much more sense to have the LRT platforms under Carling and have stairwells on either side of the street. The loop would still be retired for buses that terminate there, but routes 16 and 85 could just pass through.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by McC

yowzers, how much of the day/night will have 15 minute frequencies? I think that's a pretty terrible service level.

Yes, so much for the frequent service that they were promising. Well, from a city that considers 15 minute frequency platinum service, what more could we expect? And we want to achieve 50% transit modal share?? Haha!

Looks like we are going to be a city that loves shuttling trains over short distances.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Yes, so much for the frequent service that they were promising. Well, from a city that considers 15 minute frequency platinum service, what more could we expect? And we want to achieve 50% transit modal share?? Haha!

Looks like we are going to be a city that loves shuttling trains over short distances.

It really depends on what they mean by "off-peak times." If they are meaning early morning and late night, I don't think 15 minutes is all that bad (the 95 runs every 15 minutes before 5:30 and after 22:30, so why not the LRT?) If they mean mid day and evening, then that is pretty bad.

I think the off-peak shuttle is a good idea, especially if they can schedule it so that you get off one train and the other is there, doors open for you on the other side of the platform. It could also be co-ordinated with trains from Baseline as well so that all three trains (Baseline, Bayshore and Trim) leave at exactly the same time.

You don't need triple track west/north of the station for this though. It will be 15 minutes until the next train, so double track with the trains running side by side for the 500m until the split would be fine. If for some strange reason another train was coming, one of the trains could wait for the track to clear (if the train from Baseline was late, the train to Bayshore would want to wait for it and if the train from Bayshore was late, both other trains would want to wait for it). Having said that 500m of triple track wouldn't cost that much extra to ensure there are no bottlenecks.

[passwordisnt123]

15 minutes this far away from the downtown core with an interlined network is entirely reasonable.

Since the confederation line splits after Lincoln Fields thus reducing the frequency beyond that, I think this is an appropriate solution for the off-peak periods.

[McC]

Assuming Richard's information is correct, it's 15 minutes "off peak" on the trunk, before the split, through the core; with the question on the table being when is "off peak."

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Normally, south-/west-bound (outbound) trains will use the west platform (the one closest to Lincoln Fields Shopping Center), with the train on the outside tracks. Normally, inbound trains will use the east-most platform, with the train on the outside tracks. So, under normal conditions, the central tracks are not used. The two branches will normally have successive trains alternating between the two such as:

1. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 0
2. outbound train to Baseline at minute 3
3. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 6
4. Outbound train to Baseline at minute 9

So a train on each branch at half the frequency of the line north of Lincoln Fields Station.

If it turns out that the Lincoln Fields Station has a lot of walk-on/walk-off passengers, or transferees to/from buses, then it might be useful to have a third train using the central tracks to provide additional capacity between Lincoln Fields and, say, Hurdman Stations. (Although Hurdman is not being designed for this, the Stage 2 study envisions this as an operation option.) This scenario would reduce the number of outbound trains that are split between the Bayshore and Baseline branches. That is, instead of having the 3-minute peak service being divided down to 6-minute service on each branch, there would be timing like this:

1. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 0
2. outbound train to Baseline at minute 3
3. outbound train short turned at minute 6
4. outbound train to Bayshore at minute 9
5. Outbound train to Baseline at minute 12
6. outbound train short turned at minute 15

Thus, the main-line north of Lincoln Fields will see a train every 3 minutes; each branch will get a train every 9 minutes. This might be an option during the shoulders of the peak periods.

At off-peak times, when there are trains north of Lincoln Fields every 15 minutes, the alternating trains on each branch would only run every half hour. This would make transit undesirable for many. An option suggested by the study team is to use the central track to handle a ‘shuttle’ train between Lincoln Fields and Bayshore Stations at the same (15-minute) frequency of the Baseline Branch. Using a shuttle means that both branches will have the same frequency of trains as the section north of Lincoln Fields.

The 15-minute trains would run the entire Confederation Line from Place D'Orléans to Baseline Stations and the shuttle would run a 15-minute service between Bayshore and Lincoln Fields Stations.. This operation requires the third set of tracks south of Lincoln Fields (connecting to the lines to/from Bayshore) so that the shuttle can run parallel to the inbound and outbound trains. The pattern would be:

1. the shuttle approaches from Bayshore on inbound tracks from Bayshore
2. inbound and outbound trains and shuttle all arrive at Lincoln Fields Station, with the shuttle in the middle
3. shuttle opens doors on both sides and passengers transfer to the appropriate train
4. both trains and the shuttle leave with the shuttle switching to the outbound tracks to Bayshore

Passengers from/to Baseline get the same 15-minute service that is north of Lincoln Fields and require no transfer. Passengers from/to Bayshore also get service every 15 minutes on their shuttle and have a quick transfer at Lincoln Fields to trains going in all directions.

Seems like an odd choice to have a bunch of trains short turning at LF especially given that such a choice constrains frequencies beyond it.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by McC

Assuming Richard's information is correct, it's 15 minutes "off peak" on the trunk, before the split, through the core; with the question on the table being when is "off peak."

According to the approved frequencies for Phase 1, the only time service will drop down to every 15 minutes is after 11pm from Monday-Thursday.

The approved frequencies for Phase 1 (Tunneys-Blair) are:

Weekdays:
-5am to 6:30am - every 8 minutes
-6:30am to 9:00am - every 3 minutes
-9:00am to 2:45pm - every 5 minutes
-2:45pm to 6:00pm - every 4 minutes
-6:00pm to 9:30pm - every 5 minutes
-9:30pm to 11:00pm - every 8 minutes*
-11:00pm to 1:00am - every 15 minutes*
*Except Fridays, when there will be 8 minute service from 9:30pm to 2:00am

Saturday:
-6:00am to 7:00pm - every 5 minutes
-7:00pm to 2:00am - every 8 minutes

Sunday:
-8:00am to 7:00pm - every 5 minutes
-7:00pm to 11:00pm - every 10 minutes

Overall I think those frequencies are good but there's some weird choices; having frequency be higher on Saturday morning than it is on Saturday evenings seems particularly stupid.

There's a possibility those will be amended by opening time, but as they were confirmed to be true AFTER the RTG contract was made, they're probably set in stone as the starting service for 2018.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

They are basically continuing to force all east bound buses to loop into the station. It would make so much more sense to have the LRT platforms under Carling and have stairwells on either side of the street. The loop would still be retired for buses that terminate there, but routes 16 and 85 could just pass through.

Do any of these transit planners use transit?!?!!?!?

Honest to Pete...

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

There will also be a stop at Pinecrest. I think the bigger benefit of Queensview station is access to the south with the new pedestrian bridge.

Huh.

You'd think they'd show it, then, in that render of Queensview. The people who do these renderings are really, really, truly, terrible at their work.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

That's the case today as well, at least when you're going westbound.

It is too bad that Queensway station is closing. Particularly for someone coming from Baseline, it will no longer be easy to transfer to the 101 route.

I find the deletion of Queensway to be bizarre, too.

[Guideway]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Only scenario that makes sense to me is that all Northbound trains use the centre track so that people going from Baseline to Bayshore or vice versa could get off on to whichever platform is dedicated to that direction. Seems more confusing, though, and I don't think there would be enough volume to justify dedicated platforms for that purpose.

So the middle track would be for Baseline trains and the right track for bayshore trains? That's the only (almost) logical way I see it...

[PHrenetic]

Good Day, all.
Interesting note in the latest TPAP Completion reports for the Western 2:
from the Stage2 website downloads, Appendix K, Section 2.2.2 on Cleary station revised alignment :
Quote:
Alternative Alignment, was found to be feasible although it resulted in some encroachment of the spirals for the 120m station platform. In the west
end, the spiral at the end of the 95m radius track is 2.87m within the station, resulting in a deviation from tangent of 35mm. In the east end, the spiral at the end of the 99m
radius track is 3.49m within the station, resulting in a deviation from tangent of 24mm.
Although this deviation of design standards is appropriate in this location to achieve a
specific objective, this does not mean that this specific design variation should be utilized elsewhere.
The alignment design would maintain a 40 km/hr. speed limit through the alignment in
this area and the platform nosings would be cut back slightly to accommodate the
inswing/outswing of the vehicle. This type of alignment variation to standards was deemed acceptable in the Stage 1 alignment at Rideau Station (east end of station into
the Waller St. curve) and therefore was considered a possible alignment solution
through 747 Richmond Road at both ends of the station. While the design speed
throughout the EA alignment is 80 km/hr, the introduction of 40 km/hr curves at each end of the station platform is not considered an operational constraint to achieving the
ultimate capacity objectives for the Confederation Line.
UnQuote.

So... they already have shaved the platform in Rideau station to accommodate a tight tunnel curve, and will do the same at both ends of Cleary. Interesting.

EnJoy.

cross-posted to Confed Line U/C.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

So... they already have shaved the platform in Rideau station to accommodate a tight tunnel curve, and will do the same at both ends of Cleary.

That't not how I interpreted this. My interpretation is that the edge of the platform (nosing) will have to curve inwards (thus creating a larger gap) at both ends. It won't be shorter.

While the design speed throughout the EA alignment is 80 km/hr, the introduction of 40 km/hr curves at each end of the station platform is not considered an operational constraint to achieving the ultimate capacity objectives for the Confederation Line.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Most trains will be stopping at the station, so will be below 40 km/h anyway. Only trains not stopping will be affected, and they will most likely be deadheading.

Which reminds me, are there plans to add a western maintenance and storage facility (possibly at Queensview) so that trains starting/ending their shift in the west end don't have to deadhead all the way to/from Belfast?