YEG - Edmonton International Airport Part III

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by faraz39

If Newleaf fails, the public is to blame. Their fares are cheap and their routes are rather comprehensive for a new startup. Canadians complain about lack of competition in many industries and then don't bother supporting a startup even when the fares are competitive and the service good.

If NewLeaf fails, how can the public be blamed for a company with a crappy business plan? Comprehensive routes? You mean routes that keep changing every day? And frequencies that keep changing.
Is there perhaps a reason they have pulled YYJ, YKA, YXE, YQR... are the markets big enough there to be going to the places the flights were going? Yup.. definitely the consumer's fault. Probably the same reason Westjet pulled their YEG-YKA flights so quickly.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by LO 044

So putting all the reduction and cancellation of flights together plus reiterating again that YEG is no tourist hot spot, what is the terminal's capacity versus utilization at this point?

Is the terminal's gates completely full at anytime? If not, do we need the north terminal at this point in time? Would this be a good time to renovate the north terminal with lower construction costs and the lack of need for it? Or will we ever need the north terminal gates in the future? Can it be repurposed in some way?

There is no definitive calculation of terminal capacity. There is definitive calculation of the components of terminal; checkin space, pre board security throughput, gate utilization. One major obstacle to calculating gate utilization is determining the split between narrow-body utilization and wide-body utilization. It's not as simple as calculating based upon bridge heads or double counting wide-body flights. But this is a little to much inside baseball.

Direct answer the question, the North Terminal is still utilized by WestJet and a few other regional operators. The key question is whether WS can move their aircraft over to South Terminal without major disruption in their operation.

It is likely that the North operations could move to the South terminal for the winter season, but what if a major renovation requires a summer or two in order to complete the project? Under this scenario, the North Terminal would be completely reconstructed or taken down to metal beams and concrete posts.

Another point to consider, transborder sector has the largest decrease in passenger traffic and gate utilization. There might be North Terminal renovations in order to move gates from transborder use to domestic/international use. For example, the transborder operations would have to move to gates 78/80, 82/84, 86/88. This would free up gates 74/76 and 70/72 for exclusive domestic operations. Now I remember that gate 70 is a swing gate but I also remember that this is not a preferred gate use because passengers are congregating around gate 66/68. This is where North Terminal renovations would be required to split the traffic between domestic and transborder.

Do some bar napkin calculations, there is insufficient south terminal gates to fully close the north terminal. Like the math teacher says, "show your work":
- AC requires gates 50/52 and 54/56.
- Gate 60 goes to KLM.
- Gate 62 is used for FI and this blocks gate 64 from use.
- Gates 66/68 and 70/72 could go to Westjet provided that they don't require a widebody gate for LGW. Even then restricting WS to 4 gates is very tight margin with no room for error.

One final suggestion, if the north terminal requires a ground up rebuild, the north side of gate 49 would have to be converted to a bus operation for 737/320 size aircraft that are relocated to remote stands.

[faraz39]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

If NewLeaf fails, how can the public be blamed for a company with a crappy business plan? Comprehensive routes? You mean routes that keep changing every day? And frequencies that keep changing.
Is there perhaps a reason they have pulled YYJ, YKA, YXE, YQR... are the markets big enough there to be going to the places the flights were going? Yup.. definitely the consumer's fault. Probably the same reason Westjet pulled their YEG-YKA flights so quickly.

What crappy business plan are you referring? They serve Toronto and Vancouver and do it at very reasonable rates. Sure, the frequencies are changing but for the price they are charging and the decent service on board, I have no issues with them changing schedule as they try to figure out the best fit. Westjet and AC change frequencies regularly too so I don't see what the problem is.

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Finally get to try out the retina scan of my Nexus on Monday. Off to KY/TN for the week.

NEVER approach the scanner without the card being with you - and the passport. If you do your in deep shit - as I found out by 3 differant people lecturing me and 30 minute formal warning from a someone in Ottawa. I had approached the scanner, moved to the line in the scanners, searched my bag for the card to ensure I had it and my passport - and realized I forgot the card. I then went to the passport queue and was dragged out. I did not do a retinal scan - but the rule is your not to approach. I was given my first formal warning. Approach with the card is considered a flagrant violation.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by faraz39

What crappy business plan are you referring? They serve Toronto and Vancouver and do it at very reasonable rates. Sure, the frequencies are changing but for the price they are charging and the decent service on board, I have no issues with them changing schedule as they try to figure out the best fit. Westjet and AC change frequencies regularly too so I don't see what the problem is.

A crappy business plan indicated by how quickly they have dropped so many cities... YXJ before even launching... YKA, YYJ, YQR, YXE... gone... will they come back? who knows? That's over 40% of their original cities dropped within two months of startup. To be that wrong about so many of their initial cities in such a short period of time = poor business plan. Imagine all the start-up costs required at each of those bases just to be abandoned so quickly.

Changing frequencies as in... the days of the week they fly... one month it's Tuesdays and Fridays, then Wednesdays only... Westjet and AC change frequencies on many routes all the time of course but operate at least every day on a vast majority of routes.

Edit: now they are discounting their seats for October travel by 50%... Must have some really heavy advance bookings!

[EdmTrekker]

WestJet is not exactly firing on all cylinders on its LGW routes either. It remains to be seen how they overcome what has been a dismal launch. I would not be surprised to see them curtail the service until they have metal that is not plagued with problems...and they are fully resourced to fly into Europe.

[casper]

Originally Posted by faraz39

If Newleaf fails, the public is to blame. Their fares are cheap and their routes are rather comprehensive for a new startup. Canadians complain about lack of competition in many industries and then don't bother supporting a startup even when the fares are competitive and the service good.

It Is not the job of the general public to support and float NewLeaf.

Frankly it involves re-arranging your life around the airline. I live in YYJ. They fly only to YWG but only two or three times a week. To "support" them I have to decide that I want to travel to YWG. It is a nice city, but life does exist in other cities. I also have to ensure I only go on certain days of the week. If I want to go a different day, no travel for me.

I also want to decide I don't want carry on, otherwise it is the same price as AC (without the constraints). What is the point of NewLeaf.

Originally Posted by Cage

Do some bar napkin calculations, there is insufficient south terminal gates to fully close the north terminal. Like the math teacher says, "show your work":
- AC requires gates 50/52 and 54/56.
- Gate 60 goes to KLM.
- Gate 62 is used for FI and this blocks gate 64 from use.
- Gates 66/68 and 70/72 could go to Westjet provided that they don't require a widebody gate for LGW. Even then restricting WS to 4 gates is very tight margin with no room for error.

- Gate 60 does not exist
- Gate 62 cannot dock a widebody, they bridge on 64 which blocks 62

There's gates at the transborder end. So if they really want to knock down some walls and do partitioning, 80/82/84 or whatever they wanted could become swing gates. As it currently is, WS couldn't run peak sked off 4 gates. There would have to be fairly significant changes in the form of de-banking the ~5 pm-ish bank in summer sked at the very least, and then additional ground crew for the purpose of towing.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Acey

- Gate 60 does not exist
- Gate 62 cannot dock a widebody, they bridge on 64 which blocks 62

There's gates at the transborder end. So if they really want to knock down some walls and do partitioning, 80/82/84 or whatever they wanted could become swing gates. As it currently is, WS couldn't run peak sked off 4 gates. There would have to be fairly significant changes in the form of de-banking the ~5 pm-ish bank in summer sked at the very least, and then additional ground crew for the purpose of towing.

Since this winter both AC and WS are slashing YEG flights (and a shift away from mainline), this is probably the best time to renovate the North. Not a complete tear down but get it up to some sort of similar standard to the rest. They don't need any expansion per se as traffic is going to be down. But now is the time to do it. Can add temporary gates like they did with the transborder Express extension during the Last expansion and renovate / build behind. Also, as Cage said you can shift things down as transborder will be down to only about 14-15 flights per day... Could probably get by with 4 gates.. Just RON more of the aircraft if necessary. Next summer depending on scheds maybe just need a few more temp gates.

Again, you can do it if you change the schedule.

Today, right now, as the schedule exists... you need 5 gates Saturday at 1700. I mean really you need 6, but we'll pretend WS would be happy with WS150 waiting 15 minutes after an inevitably early arrival for WS440 to push to YYZ.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Acey

- Gate 60 does not exist
- Gate 62 cannot dock a widebody, they bridge on 64 which blocks 62
.

Thanks for the update. The last time I was at gate 60 was summer of 2001. I arrived from LHR aboard an AC 762ER. The bigger question, why is there still a bridge for gate 60?

The difference between 62 and 64,I guesstimated from looking at google maps. I guess I should get updated Jeppesen plates next time I am in Denver.

[LO 044]

Really interesting discussion and insight regarding the north terminal options. Bottom line is that this is probably the best time to get these renovations done in terms of lower construction costs and the least amount of impact on airline operations. Team EIA any hints as to upcoming work on the north terminal or any other part of the terminal?

[Rocket252]

Arriving from Halifax on Saturday with WestJet we parked at the North Terminal and picked up our bags at one of the North Terminal conveyors but we had to walk through the old section and it was not very welcoming for travelers. Time for a makeover.

[Jasper and one o nin]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

Arriving from Halifax on Saturday with WestJet we parked at the North Terminal and picked up our bags at one of the North Terminal conveyors but we had to walk through the old section and it was not very welcoming for travelers. Time for a makeover.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. The baggage claim area in the south terminal is dark, crowded, and all-in-all, not very "welcoming". Ottawa and Winnipeg airports did a much better job to give a sense of arrival. YEG's ceiling is low and is integrated with the public corridor. It makes sense for the next expansion to focus on ground-side - both departures and arrivals.

[EdmTrekker]

I think the LRT has just gotten closer to the airport with the new track and casino being West of Red Tail . The airport is going to be an entertainment zone with the outlet mall, the new track, casino and hotels and the yet to be announced "other developments". Sweet.

[Rocket252]

What they are trying to do is admirable but the goal is more and better routes out of YEG. If this helps great.

I also agree with Trekker that LRT and annexation is essential. This entertainment complex had to be incorporated into Edmonton proper.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

What they are trying to do is admirable but the goal is more and better routes out of YEG. If this helps great.

I also agree with Trekker that LRT and annexation is essential. This entertainment complex had to be incorporated into Edmonton proper.

I don't want to get flamed for posting this but just to put the route reductions into perspective. Even Delta has canned the second daily flight to SEA even over the peak Xmas period. It just stays at one daily now for the entire winter. Just indicates that even DL is adjusting capacity just like all the other transborder carriers. So it's not just AC, WS, AA, UA etc...

[Rocket252]

^ But we are getting a race track!!!!

[LO 044]

I personally couldn't care less about a race track in a winter city. Does the current Northlands track actually make money or does it get subsidized by Northlands "casino"? I worry that the airport will become a sideshow to a mall and a racetrack.

Hopefully EIA really is liberal with traffic numbers for this sort of project. Looking at the Northlands seating chart, it seems the place seats around 2500 people. I imagine this new racetrack will have a larger grandstand then add in a casino and things can get busy. I see Airport Road and Hwy 19 getting even more congested. Does anyone here have a link to the proposal? Does anyone know of airports around the world with a mall and/or a racetrack type of business right adjacent to the airport?

I was hoping for more business/logistics type buildings going up in the area proposed for the racetrack/casino. I guess time will tell how this goes but really how many casinos do we need in this City.

[Rocket252]

^ Was not that area designated for Port Alberta and its various business entities?
Maybe with that part of EIA lands not developing as fast as expected the race track became a logical alternative.